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Post them elsewhere - I am dying to see photos of the MoPac PAs. Did they get the nose correct?
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Here is a link to Keys web site with the Mopac version on it. Overall I think the nose looks real good and the contours look Ok as well. There may be an issue with the Mopac 8001, but I will not know for sure untill I see them. I do not want to say anything in a negetive way, untill it is verified. William http://www.keymodels.net/ |
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Just curious (not being a Mopac buff) why would there be an issue with just that one road number and NOT others? SW |
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There may not be an issue with all of them. It may just be this one. for now the issue is just the Mopac that I can see. But untill photot's are posted of those other painted models I we wont know.
I will know more about the Mopac's after I pick mine up today. As I have stated I do not want to start a pissing match. I will bring up the issue with key Ltd. and let them make good if need be. William
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Where do you find the prices for these? Or should I ask?
Jim's Express Jim Bengert-(RR) |
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There in the range of 2400-2550 depending on where you get them from.
Key ltd is completely sold out. william
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I don't know that mentioning something you know to be incorrect is starting a "pissing match". I see it as just stating a fact. If you didn't want the issue discussed, maybe you should NOT have posted??? SW |
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The reason I stated it that way was after looking at the photo on Keys web site,
which only shows the Mopac versions at this time. The nose herald shows it as going up on one side and down on the other side, and did not register well at the door. After waiting almost 3 years for these to be built and delivered would have been a real let down. This all I can say must have been an earlier group of photo's. This would have been a Major issue to correct at best, and I did not want to have to send them back. I also wanted to give Key the benifit of the doubt, so I did my home work rather than say Boy did they blow it and have the forum climb all over Key Ltd. The 3 models that I picked up today were as they should be, there is only a slight eror as the hearld outer wing area should sweep up more to about 3" down below the number boards. At first I thought the herald was a decal--then pad printed--but it is actually a photo etched nose emblem like the Mopac had. This is very nicely done. This is why it would have been hard to do with a etching on a curve surface. Now I have run them extensively over 6 hours so far, and they run like Swiss Watches--the wheel tread is .145"--they have working upper Mars and lower headlignt--cab-- engine comparment and running board lignting. I think they also included the toilet detail. All the doors work as well as the PA shrouded pilot covers. These only lasted about 6 months after delivey and most railroads removed them. For now they will stay. OK now for coupler mounting you will need to take your time, this will be no shake the box. The rear coupler pad has several details that have been screwed to the floor area and to mount a Kadee they will have to me removed to get the box in and then re attatched. one may have to be modified to clear the kadee box. Now there is a down side to the coupler pads they look as if the were not threaded or had excessive paint in the threads for screws--I tried 1.7mm but is was to sloppy--so I retaped for a 2x10mm a 2x8mm will work also. The Kadee 804 805 806 will all work. The front coupler with the pilot shroud will be a little more time consuming, you will have to decide if you want a coupler in the front, if you do the shroud will have to left in the open position. I did not find any coupler screws in the 3 models that I have, I supplied my own. Over all I am very pleased with what Key has done on this version and they should be commended for there efforts. I hope the other versions imported as well are this way. As I have stated these are my comments, there are plus and some minor negs but I dont think they are major. William
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The nose looks accurate. I am tickled. I love good models, even if I cannot justify the investment.
I did check a previously produced Key PA up against one of my all metal MTH PAs, and found them to be just about identical, except for the level of detail. I have not inspected the MTH PA truck sideframes, so don't know if they were as accurate as the body. |
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William,
What was the current draw for one unit running light? When you get a coupler on one of the units, I would be interested in the current draw at wheel slip? Thanks, Ed |
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Simply wonderful!!!!
WOW! I LOVE KEY! I have a set of E5's in Q on order, and Milw E6's... I am very happy for you, please take some images on them for us. Erik 
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    I shot those awhile ago, little snap shots.. The E7's were from 2002.. LOVE EM! Incredible. The PA's in ATSF were from the 1989 run. The new guys promise to be nothing short of astounding... engine room detail, you name it! |
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I think the MSRP was $3800, not sure. The store ordered a set for a client, I am curious if he will allow us to photograph it. |
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I know my KEY 2002 E7's pull .5 amps at 2 volts with a 14 car brass passenger train moving at approx. 30 SMPH. Absolute dead steady on the meters. Amazing drives. |
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Was 3800.00 the list price for a 2 unit set? Although I don't own any Key diesels myself I believe models like these encourage the plastic manufacturers to continue to upgrade their products. I think the latest engines from Sunset are great products for the money.
Thanks, Hibar |
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I am pretty sure the 2009 PA's A-B-A are $3800.00 MSRP. A loot of dealers can negotiate a price. But yeah, they are rather pricey. I think I paid $2950 for my A-B E7's back in 2002. I paid something in the way of $4200 for my A-B-B-A F7's in Bumble Bee DRGW. Yes these models do set a standard that the rest of the industry we would hope may follow them. A good importer does their research, thoroughly. |
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I really think this is an error in price.
The dealer net from Key is 1400.00 per locomotove, so an A B A set would be 4200.00 DN. This is what I paid my dealer. Now if you take 1400.00 and add a full mark up of 25-30% to them 2400.00 each= 7200.00 for an A B A. Remember we are talking 2009 dollors not 2004 1985. Key raised the price after they decided to add a lot to the interior and other details. You will probably never see another run of the Key models done in the future, so thats why i bit the bullet and got 3, Yes it was exspensive but I felt worth the wait once I saw them. And no I don't think this makes the plastic manuf. step up and improve there product, it's a different market from brass. The new E-7's from 3rd rail will likly be a 1000.00 a pop. william
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We need to remember that there are different markets here. Not every model train nut is lusting after a set of PAs for seven grand. Take me for instance - I would not ever consider that price for a model anything. Well, I did spend eight grand for a live steamer, but that one was not in the same hobby.
I agree that Sunset will not be able to make an E7 that will satisfy the 2-rail crowd for less than a grand, given the restrictions on power arrangements, but you can bet that MTH will also have an E7 ready in about three years, and while it may be too high and on China drives, it will have more and better detail than the Overland version of not too many years ago. MTH units will be of the order of $400 a pop, and they will sell. For me? I kinda like the older Adams units, and have my share, with two more getting rivet strips and power sections. They do not compare with any of the above, but they make me happy. The PAs have more or less correct contours, and are 17/64 scale! The E7s take a lot of work and heat to get riveted. All, of course, opinion. |
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A friend, Merlyn Lauber had a pair of E6's built in CRI&P two years ago, this is one pair of two sets built. My E7's are 1 set of 5 built. It is not uncommon for Key to do this.
As far as price, I am pretty sure your right $7200... But at Caboose you could save yourself at least 20%. Roger Clark ordered a set for a local man who is regular of Caboose Hobbies. I am not a fan of Mopac myself and the ATSF 1989 run is good with me. As far as futher released from Key, Roger Lewis is planning on taking the lead from what he has told me. I will assist him in research as I have with Ron Kieser on the CZ project. Key builds extreme limited numbers, further enhances the value. I have 4 sets of Key locomotives and swear by them. I am curious how Sam Model Tech handled this last project. As far as the E units, I have been told from very reliable sources I will get them. As well as who ever ordered them. I think your price was a little high, I am sorry. Who did you order them from? This message has been edited. Last edited by: Erik C Lindgren, |
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Hi All,
If the E-7's from Sunset are, in fact, $1000 per set then they will face some competition from Weaver who is bringing in the Pennsy Passenger Sharks in brass for $995.00. We shall see. Cheers, Ed |
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The pricing for GGD's E-7 diesels is not yet established but it will probably be in the range of $400 for powered and $200 for non-powered units. They are going to be sold separately for all roads as well as in sets where sets make sense for packaging purposes ie A-B-A for NYC and PRR, etc.
As of now the body will be plastic, the trucks die cast, and the frames brass - all subject to change. The drive will be made in China, hence a "China drive" but most likely NOT the usual twin motor vertical with poor starting. |
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Bob,
Sounds like good news and a better product than I had anticipated. Thanks for the update. Cheers, Ed |
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Hi All,
Getting back to the Key Alco PA's, what decoder, including sound, would be appropriate for these engines? Cheers, Ed |
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Ed,
Can't speak to sound decoders but I use 408SR's with great operation in my Key E-8 units. |
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Thats a good answer.
Now here is my take on the lighting board in the PA's. The motor draws such little current to get the model started the lignts and mars feature do not really operate untill its going about 50 MPH. It acts like there needs to be a resistor wired accross the motor to get the lights to come on when it is standing still or with about 3 volts. This is all done using 1.5V bulbs, and there is about 8 of them in the model. That is a lot of current to kick start the lights. Does any one have an idea as to the right wattage resistor to use?
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I checked my invoice from the person that I bought these from and it says
DN A units 1450.00 DN B units 1350.00 Now I bought A units and my check to him was 4350.00 for 3 of them, Yes I got them at cost. So that makes my earlier postings right on if you were to pay full retail from a dealer that would 7395.00. Thats a 30% mark up. Now originally when they were first anounced they were 1350 and 1250, but then the price went up because of add ons. I really feel that they are really justified on the price, because of the small quantities imported from Key. They will hold value. William
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Well, I did some homework.. Turns out I spent $4450 for my A/B E7's in UP. I ordered them new and like usual waited 3-4 years for them. They were one of the very, very last projects completed by the now defunct Samhongsa.
My F7's in Grande were bought new in 1989 for a total sum of $4600 for the 4 units set in 1989! Heavens, I was in 8th grade and from what I can tell you could have bought a new car for $5000! At any rate, my wife tells me you and numbers don't get along  Anyway, Roger was telling me last night that Caboose offered the set ordered locally at $6250. A good savings, however still if you think about it.. I have a Koh's Hudson I dropped $4500 on.. 3 complete multi ball bearing drive super detail motors for $7200 is very reasonable. We all hope the same thing, the Grande PA's will arrive with enough umph to pull the CZ in brass. I for one think it will. All of the cars will have roller bearing trucks, the drives like my E7's are all ball bearing.. heavy well my E7 A unit is 16 lbs. I can pull 14 brass Wasatch/PSC passenger cars with ease on 2-3% grades on the Midland Railroad with my Key LTD E7's. My 4 F7's pull my 9 car Prospector with ease. The Prospector is not a ball bearing set, the trucks are needle point.  This shot shows the mail train, with all brass except one Harriman 70' baggage car.           This message has been edited. Last edited by: Erik C Lindgren, |
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Cool!
I am so glad you were able to get a discount. Brass has some wiggle room on final price. I am so thrilled for you.. new brass from the best is so fun! My wife really gave me a snafu last night, you need to get your numbers right!    we have a set coming into the store this week, I will see if I can get some shots. Take some pictures for us! Thanks and sorry buddy!
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Love the photos. Thanks for posting them.
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Cool! Glad you enjoy them, were all love this stuff! Some of those images are a few years old when I was till learning how to take pictures.. Some of those were kind of campy  |
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Yes - me too. You are an artist with the railroad and the camera. Please publish, so these things are preserved in print.
That PA sideframe looks real, except for the missing grease and dirt. This is the only time ever that I agree with re-posting photos twice in the same thread. Worth it. |
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Nice photos of those fantastic models and layout. We have our version of the prospector, what a beauty.
Michael Pitogo NYSME - oldest model railroad club in America "Do, or do not, there is no try" - Master Yoda |
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Yeah Michael, I have seen the video of it on YouTube of your set, they really are the most beautiful passenger cars ever done in O Scale. I have owned and seen the PSC GN EB 1947 cars, Watsatch UP cars, PRB SP Daylight, ATSF 51' and 38' Super Chief, Lionel Smithsonian 20th Century, by far my favorite is the PRB Grande cars. Truly they are the Coach Yard of O scale with a close tie with my Wasatch UP cars. I love the Gold and Silver Grande F's you guys operate with them! I have a Gold and Silver (2005) A/B set from Key, but not a complete A/B/B/A. My Bumble Bee A/B/B/A set handles the weight pretty well. I wish John Smith would have used roller bearings in the trucks. I am tempted to add them, or retrofit with Wasatch trucks. I am getting ready to super detail a set of Royal Gorge (my favorite) with window shades, tinted glass, LED/fiber optic lights, passngers/crew, furnishing updates, stem ware and china on the tables (with the correct patterns), very slight weathering, black ends, and so on. Perhaps if get them done in time I will enter them in the next O Scale National. What a great hobby, I mean addiction, I mean sickness, I mean.. never mind.. |
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For those wanting in forum images...
A set is coming through the store, I will get some very good shots when I can. Key's PA in MoPac: see further down.... I will try and conduct a full review when I get to them. I should do a photo shoot of my E7's from 2002 and the club's ATSF PA's from 1989. The finish from what I can tell is typical Key, wonderful flat/satin. Just right. Major improvements are interior and of course MoPac fans never had this model produced before. Too bad the horrid exchange rate is beginning to kill us. I checked in on my source for E units is good, they are producing as we speak. I can't wait to get my Q E5's!!!! Wahoo! This message has been edited. Last edited by: Erik C Lindgren, |
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Sorry about the size guys, I can not control the image resolution from my end through a cut and paste. Key shot these and added them from what I can a few days back. I should send them some images, Roger Lewis shoots outstanding images for them also. Carry on troops!
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I still think Samhongsa was the best builder... Sam Model Tech and Boo Rim are outstanding.. I miss Samhongsa. Fit and finish on Samhongsa anything was "perfect" on Key projects. Absolutely perfect.
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take the pictures and put them on external website like photobucket where it will auto-crop the images down to size for you.
---------- David Friedlander SR/NS Radio Receiver Car Kits are now shipping! 3R, 3RS, and 2R! See all 3 pilot models here: http://www4.ncsu.edu/~djfriedl/SRRKit.html |
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Sample:
Key 2002-2003 E units (builder Samhongsa last project)  Key 2009  They are both spectacular, but Samhongsa would not let the door etching line up crooked, note the headlight fit and finish was absolutely crisp on the 2002 run. Again I think both are outstanding, Samhongsa fell apart and we lost the finest model builders ever. Or at least they all went various directions. I am still looking forward for improvements in my E5's when they arrive mid 2010. |
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Thanks buddy!     |
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No problem. I saw some paint chips or flaws on this unit, particularly the big one standing out on the windshield wiper.
Who takes care of fixing something like that? ---------- David Friedlander SR/NS Radio Receiver Car Kits are now shipping! 3R, 3RS, and 2R! See all 3 pilot models here: http://www4.ncsu.edu/~djfriedl/SRRKit.html |
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Often times we get new brass that has minor repairs needed. We have a gamut of personal that do various things such as paint work to brass work. I am sure Key inspects each unit prior to shipment. This model is likely a sample, or a well loved and touched piece! |
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Perhaps on the horizon Key is planning on doing a run of the Colorado Eagle cars for these? I would like to see the Texas Zephyr and perhaps the Exposition Flyer cars...
Fred Hill over at Coach Yard "Exclusively HO" did a incredible job on the Colorado Eagle cars back in 2005.  |
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Erik:
I have already addressed the nose emblem in my oiginal postings. These photo's that you cut and pasted for the Mopac 8001 are not represented of What key shipped to me. They emblem is as it should be spot on no gaps or other problems. Bottom line my models are outstanding 8001 8003 8004. The only issue that I have at the momentis the lighting module and the way the lights work. It takes to much current ot get the 8 1.5v bulbs to light up when runing. I think it needs a resistior across the motor, but I do not know what value it should be. William
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William, as we discussed earlier "This model is likely a sample, or a well loved and touched piece!".. samples generally take a little beating.  I am glad your pieces are meeting your expectation. |
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William,
Your note about the lighting intrigues me. I'm surprised your not that thrilled with the lighting. My E7's have spectacular lighting, the moment I turn up the voltage, perhaps a 10th of a volt, the class lights, the number boards, the door light, and interior light up. Upon a bit more throttle the fabulous Mars light begins to rotate, amazingly accurate Mars light. When I reverse the locomotives the Mars headlight makes one sweep, and dims down to about 50% of the original sweeping simulation and does not simulate rotation. The door headlight maintains 75% of forward illumination while the class lights and number boards light as normal. I love the lighting on these models. The lighting on the earlier models do not have this complexity. |
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Well I would be jumping if they workrd as you say yours do. It may be that I am not using DCC or any form like that. I am runing on a test tracki using an MRC
18 volt power pack. But i would not think that would matter. I wonder if they are defective, but to have all 3 like that would be odd to me. Now I have my Passenger cars with LED lighting and when the PA's are on the same track and turned on to run, they make the lignting act just like the PA. Remove the PA and the lighting is fine. This is why I am at a loss in this aspect. William
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Very cool! Take some pictures with your passenger cars. Sounds beautiful!
We use DC at the Midland Railroad, no DCC yet. Good old standard DC 2 rail, has been since 1935. We are beginning to experience failures in the relay network. Carry on Buddy! |
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