Hi All,
Weaver just announced the Pennsy Passenger Sharks in brass in either Tuscan Red or Brunswick Green with the classic five stripe scheme.
Does anyone know how many of each color the Pennsy had? On repainting, which color was used? Any other pertinent information out there?
Thanks,
Ed

From Weaver Models website.

The PRR painted the BP20 sharks in 4 different passenger schemes, and a fifth scheme for those converted to class BF16z for freight service.
The information below was extracted from the Pennsy Journal Winter 1981 reprint of PRR lettering, striping, and painting traces for the passenger sharks.

Scheme 1 (1948): "Dark Green locomotive Paint” with 5 gold leaf stripes beginning at the circled keystone. Applied to all 18 A and 9 B units.

Scheme 2 (1949-1952): Scheme 1 modified to add pointed stripes to the nose forward of the circled keystone. Applied to all units shortly after delivery.

Scheme 3: (1952-) : Scheme 2 modified with Tuscan red replacing dark green, and "synthetic buff" replacing gold for lettering and striping. Applied to all remaining BP20's - except 4 A and 4 B units converted to freight service class BF16z.

Scheme 4: (1956-): Tuscan Red body with single broad stripe, shadow keystone, large letters. Applied to many BP20's. However photos show several BP20’s in the 5 stripe Tuscan scheme several years past the introduction of the broad stripe scheme. Some BP20's may have been withdrawn from service before receiving the single broad stripe scheme.

Scheme 5 (Freight conversions 1952): DGLE single narrow stripe (like on AtlasO's PRR FM Erie builts).

In addition to paint scheme, body details such as horns, nose vents, number boards, and safety ladders evolved over time. The first two A units had distinctive Mars lights in addition to headlights on their nose. Dated photos are the best guide to synchronizing paint schemes with body details for any given unit. I’ve had several communications with Weaver’s Joe Hayter about the sharks and sent him the Pennsy Journal magazine containing the lettering diagrams.

I look forward to buying what should be the best BP20 ever made for the O scale market.

Ed Rappe
PRRT&HS 419

I think Weaver is making a mistake only offering a dummy B unit and powered A unit.

O scale passenger cars are heavy and the dummy will probably weigh as much as a car hence reducing the train length.

I just can't imagine one powered A unit will pull the dead weight dummy plus 6-7 cars on a 1-2 percent grade.

prrjim,
Weaver is considering making an additional powered A unit available. Hopefully, that will solve your problem.
Cheers,
Ed

The Weaver website indicates additional A units will be available. It appears the fixed pilot front will have an electro-coupler. Electronics should be there to add an electro-coupler to the rear of the A unit. It will be interesting to see how Weaver designs all this considering the A B A set up. Though in two rail electro-couplers are not an issue yet.

Depending on the mechanics of the dummy B unit, motors could be added. At one time TAS indicated that the standard EOB board was capable of (4) motors. A tether to the B unit would be required, though there appears to be one there for at least the rear electro-coupler and rear marker lights on the B unit.

the folks at Weaver are very responsive to comments about their products. if enough modelers indicate their preference for a powered A-B set, rather than an additional powered A unit, they may just make that change before production.

we have recently been able to get Weaver to agree to build a steel Keyser Valley caboose and possibly a Pocono steamer. all from enough people voicing their want for the product.

It will be interesting to see how this new Weaver Models BP20 will compare with the custom Brass units of Yesteryear.









For one thing, I hope that Weaver Models uses the correct BLW Lift Triangle Plates than incorrect EMD Lift eyes.

I'd like to see Weaver offer powered A and B units. At 80' long per unit, an A-B-A will take up a little too much track space on my passing sidings. The NJCB passenger sharks had very nicely detailed sprung trucks and a smooth running drive, but I'm betting Weaver's BP20's will have better nose contours. I believe NJCB used their freight shark nose casting on their longer nosed passenger shark models. This results in a less than smooth line flowing back off the nose. The issue can be mitigated by using Bondo body putty to recontour the area where the nose casting meets the sheet brass side.


Ed Rappe

As noted, originally 18 A's and 9 B's were ordered by the PRR. Did these always operate in an A-B-A configuration when in passenger service?

Ted
When initially delivered in 1948 the PRR ran their passenger power (EMD E7's, Alco PA/PB's, and Baldwin BP20's in 6000 horspower A-B-A sets. Within a year or two they realized they were overpowering medium sized trains and began tailoring the power mix to the weight of the train. In searching through BP20 photos in my collection of Pennsy books, I found A, AB, AA, and ABA units in service. In my 1952 era, I found the AB combinations to be quite common. By that time the BP20's were no longer hauling blue ribbon trains (the Baldwins and Alco's were displaced by the E7's and new E8's). The BP20's saw extensive service on mail and express trains, secondary trains, and later in NY&LB commuter service.

Weaver's selection of an A B combination is a good one - I'd just like to see them offered as powered sets.

Ed Rappe

Ed,

Thank you for the info. These are long engines and running an A-B is more doable on an a layout. Just wasn't sure it was correct.

I would also like to see them offered with a powered B. Mentioned this to Joe Hayter while at York.

Ted

They typically ran AB or AA in NY&LB service. Of course like many a great loco, the NY&LB was the end of the line for these.

I certainly hope Weaver offers individual powered A units since this is how I remember BP20 operation during the units' final days in NY&LB service. Just prior to retirement, single units had become a fairly common sight. As a kid, I remember standing at Matawan in the gathering dusk at the end of the evening rush hour. Exhaust sparks flew everywhere as the BP20's accelerated from their station stops.

Bob

Hi All,
I talked with Joe Hayter of Weaver Models today.
My first concern was the proper color of striping on the DGLE and Tuscan models. He assured me that the DGLE will have the gold leaf and the Tuscan will have the buff.
My next concern was the unpowered B unit. I suggested that he power all the units and sell them individually. Then we could buy what we want. If you want just an A, buy just an A. If you want an ABA, then buy an ABA. This was a possibility, although remote.
I also asked about the possibility of selling just the mechanism to power the B units. That is not being considered.
I did ask about the possibility of one large horizontal motor and that is not being considered either.

While I do not like pestering people, since I was a parent and underwent torture of that type for hours on end, I do think we should make our wishes known especially since Joe seems willing to please his customers.

I think that all units should be powered and sold individually for the reasons cited above.

If you agree, tell Joe. If you have a better plan, tell Joe.

My $0.05. Inflation, you know.

Regards,
Ed

quote:

I did ask about the possibility of one large horizontal motor and that is not being considered either.

I am on Joe H's side on that one! for such a big LONG unit, Dual motors ins a MUST! The unwarranted complaints for just using a single motor on such a big unit would be deafening for the receptionist answering the phone!

I don't see how dual motors could be more effective than a properly geared center shaft motor with tower gear assemblies over each truck. Less HP with proper gearing can still out-pull more HP without gearing.

quote:

Originally posted by Ed Kelly:

I did ask about the possibility of one large horizontal motor and that is not being considered either.

Ed

Don't you love those China-Drives.....They even put them in Brass engines, now. I tell you, we are close to the bottom, but not quite there yet. When they put a China Drive on their upcoming steam engine, I am switching back to HO or better Z scale.

Yves

PRR...,
I don't think you know the power of some of the Pittman motors. I have one in my C&O H-8 and it is rated at O.10 horsepower. You can't do that with a vertical drive. A good horizontal drive beats the China drives everytime.
Cheers,
Ed

Ed:

Thanks for taking the time to contact Weaver regarding configuration options for the BP20. I would be interested in the model only if I can purchase a single A unit. I have long disapproved of the way Lionel and MTH force multiple unit consists of cab units on its customers, particularly if they are prototypically inaccurate. The worst example of this philosophy is MTH's insistence in issuing its FT in an A-B-A configuration. Even though the great majority of FT's were built and sold by GM in an A-B combination, I guess MTH doesn't feel the need to do it the correct way.

Atlas has the right idea in selling single units of its F-M Erie builts and F's. Let's hope Weaver follows suit.

Thanks again,

Bob

I've been following this thread, just for giggles and grins, as I seem to have a strange love/hate thing for Sharks.

The Jan-Feb issue of Diesel Era had a good article on the BP-20s, as the first Sharks, they have been overshadowed by the later B-B siblings. According to the story, some of the BP-20s ended their days in freight service. A few details were changed to accomidate this (get the back issue)

All I have to say on the drive issue is here we go again...

quote:

Originally posted by tsgtbob:All I have to say on the drive issue is here we go again...

It's the idiotic idea that two of something is always better than one.

SW

given the dynamics and realities of manufacturing these engines, we're gonna have a lot more success with getting both A&B units powered than we are getting Weaver to sell single units... plain economics for them. I'd suggest if you only want 1 unit, then arrange to either buy one from a friend, or better yet, split the order of the pair.

though if they were shrewd business-people, and I think they are, they'll build more of the A units than B's.

we cannot expect Weaver to accommodate single unit wishes and still get the model built and sold, and make money.

I guess my option will to buy the A-B set, the additional A unit the site promises, take the powered guts from the second A, put them in the B, and make the trailing A a dummy. *sigh*

quote:


"I am on Joe H's side on that one! for such a big LONG unit, Dual motors ins a MUST! The unwarranted complaints for just using a single motor on such a big unit would be deafening for the receptionist answering the phone!"

I disagree with this statement very strongly. I have many single motor diesels and a few china drives. The china drives just don't run as smoothly. One truck always starts first and jerks, and then the other starts and the reverse happens when stopping.

I also have an old Max Grey SD9 which is a big brass diesel. It is a single motor drive. It is a very smooth running loco and will go around 48 inch radius. All journals are sprung and you can watch each axle go up and down over a switch frog.

The china drives with diecast trucks are basically toy train drives that Lionel developed in the late 1940s They ran like slot cars when they ran, but were not really designed for serious operation.

I recieved this e-mail from Weaver today regarding pre-orders of the BP-20 Other than expense this should be good news for those requesting two powered units.

Dear Mike,
Just wanted to update everyone on the Pennsylvania Railroad BP-20 project announced by Weaver Models at the October York TCA Show. Originally this set was announced to be released with a powered A-Unit and dummy B-Unit. Based upon all the feedback we have received since the original announcement, it has been decided to offer it as a powered A-Unit and powered B-Unit. The "sounded" models will have sound in the A-Unit but there will not be sound in the powered B-Unit, however both units will be Command Control equipped. We have also decided to offered an additional powered A-Unit, for those wishing to run A-B-A.

The revised product ID numbers and pricing are as follows:
G1737 = PRR BP-20 Tuscan Red, 5-Stripe. Includes: (1) Powered A-Unit, & (1) Powered B-Unit (LP & SP include sound in the A-Unit, but no sound in the Powered B-Unit) Retail = $1275.00 for 2-Rail AC and 3-Rail with sound, $1175.00 for 2-Rail without Sound.
G1738 = PRR BP-20 Brunswick Green, 5-Stripe. Includes: (1) Powered A-Unit, & (1) Powered B-Unit (LP & SP include sound in the A-Unit, but no sound in the Powered B-Unit) Retail = $1275.00 for 2-Rail AC and 3-Rail with sound, $1175.00 for 2-Rail without Sound.
G1739 = PRR BP-20 Tuscan Red 5-Stripe Additional Powered A-Unit. Retail = $639.00 for 2-Rail AC and 3-Rail with sound, $589.00 for 2-Rail without Sound.
G1740 = PRR BP-20 Brunswick Green 5-Stripe Additional Powered A-Unit. Retail = $639.00 for 2-Rail AC and 3-Rail with sound, $589.00 for 2-Rail without Sound.

Within the next week we will contact all Customers that originally ordered the Powered A / Dummy B Unit combination under the product ID numbers G1735 & G1736. Those Customers will be given the opportunity to let their order stand "as-is", or to "upgrade" to the Powered A-Unit & Powered B-Unit combination offering under the new product ID numbers and prices listed above. Although we will fulfill all previous orders taken for the Powered A / Dummy B combination, we will not accept any additional orders for that particular combination.

This information is listed on our PRR BP-20 web page at: http://www.weavermodels.com/page76.html Please contact us with any questions or concerns you should have. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Weaver Models
PO Box 231
315 Point Township Drive
Northumberland, PA 17857
Phone: 570-473-9434
Fax: 570-473-3293
Hours: Weekdays, 8:00 AM - 4:30 PM Eastern Time
www.weavermodels.com

Mike,
Any word on the drive? When I talked with Joe, he mentioned that they were aware of the gearing ratio problem. I assume that that will not be a problem but I would still prefer one large horizontal motor.
Regards,
Ed

I am glad Weaver listened to the modelers and the hobby shop owners about the powered B unit...It was the right thing to do and Weaver should be commended for their actions...
Dennis

A good electric motor works well in any orientation, and gearing can be adjusted for scale type speed ranges. The problem with vertical motors is getting power to all the other axles - spur gears and sprung trucks are probably incompatible. But a horizontal motor over each truck can drive three worm/worm gear assemblies and still allow sprung journals, if that is the goal.

I have friends who will not consider an articulated unless it has two motors, even though it could be arranged to have side rods in and out of synchronization, if that is what is desired. I wonder how they get such good performance out of two motors? I am not talking about ordinary modelers - these are the guys who want exactly the right number of rivets, even in places you cannot see. These are guys who won't let MTH or Weaver in the door.