Guys,

The Denver Society of Model Railroaders just received our FEF-3. We unpacked it today and it sure looks good. I'll try to check some model measurements against prototype dimensions when I am back in town in a couple of weeks.

After using the NMRA gauge to check all the wheels (all were in gauge), we lubed all axles and the valve gear and put it on the test track. Started and ran smoothly and quietly.

Transferred it to our layout and coupled on a test train, consisting of 8 passenger cars, 7 brass and 1 resin. Walked away with it on level track, starting at about 6 volts. Most of the run around the layout was done at 8 - 10 volts and 1.5 - 2 amps. It slipped to a stop on a 2.5% grade but Frog Snot should fix that.

Now for some nit-picking. The classification lamps are green but the number boards say X-841. Therefore, the class lamps should be white. The marker lights on the back of the tender are bright red but should be off unless the loco is a pusher on the back of a train. Both issues will be fixed by some judicious snipping of wires. Scott, how about some switches to set the class lights green/white/off and the markers on/off?

The one issue I have is that there appears to be no fillet between the wheel tread and the flange. The NMRA standard calls for one and, IIRC, their test results said that the fillet was very important. Scott, I hope this will be fixed on all future models. That being said, it ran well on our 75 year old track.

Photos will be posted shortly on http://www.denveroscaleclub.org/

ChipR

For what its worth, I "open up" every steam locomotive model I get and unplug the wires to the front class lights AND those rear, red, marker lights.

Switches would be an EXCELLENT idea! Also, white class lights on the front would be MUCH more desirable, and more prototypically correct for freight locomotives. Plus switches!

brassman,

Can't wait to see those "serious errors"!!!

Here are some photos:

http://www.denveroscaleclub.or...ecent-photos!?page=3

ChipR

Hot Water:
Please contact me off line about the "errors". If you don't have my contact info Scott or the Sasquatch will give it to you.

To quote the Sunset website,"Best model ever built of the FEF-3" Really? What about the Overland Models, KTM USA, and Key?

Doesn't the 844 running today have two Dynamos? Ed

Hi All,
For me, an incorrectly contoured wheel is a deal killer. If the wheels are not contoured properly, i.e., with a filet, then they won't track right over all track. This is more important to me than a missing detail, etc.
Scott should be informed of this so he can put it on his list of items to check on the pilot models.
Heck, this is 2009. Models have been imported for 60+ years now. This mistake should not be happening now. Same goes for the GGD models.
Just my $0.05. Inflation, you know.
Regards,
Ed

brasman,

Yes, #844 "as she is today" has too dynamotors. However, the photos posted by ChipR, above, are of #841 "as she was in regular service, about 1955", thus there is only one dynamotor.

The picture of the model 844 present had only one dynamo. Is that correct as it should have two? Also are the platforms below the tender class lights correct for the present 844 on other models? Ed

I am with Ed Kelly - first they have to run right.

Then I line up with Hot Water - I really could care less if the model has too many dynamos, but I am hoping the major dimensions are accurate.

You get what you pay for, and if you really want the definitive FEF, you should start looking for the KTM-USA. I bet brasman has one! Last I heard, you could get these things for under ten grand.

Do you think I could get a set of side rods for my Lionel?

I believe the intent in wording the ad "best ever F-E-F" was intended for the 3 rail market. I do not believe Mr. Mann would argue the fact that models such as the KTM are the finest ever made in 2 rail.

brasman,

Concerning the one versus two dynamoters, it depends on which era you are discussing. If you model in the early to mid 1950s, an 844 model would have only one dynamotor. If you take the 844 model in to the "as she is today" era, then she must have two dynamotors, since the second dynamotor was added to both 844 and 3985 in the mid to late 1990s (for operation on the former C&NW automatic train stop territory).

It was my understanding that Sunset/3rd Rail was going to offer FEF-3 models in three versions:

1) Regular service era, painted black. At least two road numbers: 841 & 844.

2) Two tone gray.

3) Current "as she is today", obviously only one road number - 844!

Hi Guys,

GOSH THOSE ARE SOME OF THE MOST BEAUTIFUL PICTURES I HAVE EVER SEEN. Model looks good on your layout.

Let me clear things up. No one knows the ins and outs of the design of our 3rd Rail FEF-3 more than me. After all I approved the drawings.

1. We made 2 In Service Numbers: #841 Black, #837 Grey. We chose these because they are the only 2 correct numbers for the Worthington FWH version.

2. We made only 1 Today Version: #844 also with the worthington FWH. We did not intent to change too much as it was a version that that would not have wide appeal (Today Version). Most modelers wanted to have engines that were In Service. The changes we made from In Service to Today are: We added a second Dynamo and turned them perpendicular to the boiler. We added details to the oil bunker that were only on the today verison, using photos of the real #844 provided by HOT WATER (Thanks Hotwater).

To my comments this model being the finest FEF-3 ever produced. I have seen the KTM, Overland and others. Ours has crisper detail, stronger attachment, better drive system, better tracking than the other 2 rail models. And I believe the KTM wasn't even factory painted. The newest technology of painting and decaling went on this model. Even the striping was attached with our Korea brand decal material. Everything is straight and true. I have seen many models come out of ours and others factories, and if this isn't the best, I don't know what is.

As for the wheel fillet in 2 Rail: I will look into this. New info to me. If anyone is having tracking problems I'd like to hear about it. Seems that this is not an issue so far. Since this is a newer builder for us, I will inform them of the mistake so it won't happen again, if it is a mistake.

To those that like poking holes in other peoples projects, if you don't get involved in the early stages you will be dissappointed in the results. If you know so much about everything, then why don't you say anything when corrections can be made? Both Bob Heil and Hot Water worked with me from beginning to end. Another heavy hitter, Mike Kowtowski provided very detailed and specific corrections to our design and provided data from all sources. If you don't know who Mike is, then you don't know much about 2 Rail. Mike also wanted me to do the 3 stack version, but it was an anomaly, only applied for a short time to one loco I think. So that is why we didn't do it.

Best of all, these models are here for your enjoyment. Beyond that you are blowing smoke in the wrong direction. Next time, get involved. You are invited.

Regards,

Scott Mann

Scott,

Thanks for your comments about the FEF-3 and the photos taken by Erik Lindgren. In discussing the fillet between the tread and flange, I was alluding to:

RP25 at http://www.nmra.org/standards/.../RP-25%202009.07.pdf

Regards,
ChipR

For what its worth, the FEF-2 class reportedly needed the smoke box extended for the Worthington S Feedwater System. Thus, only FEF-2 road numbers 823, 828, 829, 830, and 833 received the Worthington up-grade. The FEF-3 locomotives that received the Worthington up-grade where: #837 (1952), #839 (1956), #841 (By early 1953), #843 (By early 1954) and #844 (1955). Apparently #837 had the three stacks removed at the time the Worthington up-grade took place in 1952.

Answer to question: Ed Campbell

ChipR, I have never had an opporuntiy to see the DSMR layout in person. Ihe photo's of the layout are impressive. I loved the work that has been done on the scenery. Thanks for the photo's of the FEF-3. While I don't model the Union Pacific I can appreciate fine work and think the scenry and the model both look great. Bill B.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: railhead53,

What is Frog Snot?

Does the loco need more weight?

Hotwater and rheil. I contend that the FEF-2 did not have to have their smokebox extended and Hotwater agrees that the 844 did not have its smokebox extended so why is the model of 844 modeled incorrectly with the smokebox extended and the
FWH set incorrectly back over a scale foot?

To refute Hotwaters claim that 837 had it's triple stack remover sometime after the FWH was installed in 1952 look at page 59 in the book UP 4-8-4 Prototype Locomative Photos and the UPHS and see a picture of 837 in 1954 with the triple stack which it kept until scrapped in 1959. So why is the triple stack missing on the best model ever produced or 837? Ed

Ted,

http://www.bullfrogsnot.com/ca...g/Frog_Snot-1-1.html

Liquid traction tires. It will wear off but is easy to replace. Our feeling is that adding weight increases the strain on the gears whilst the Frog Snot doesn't.

ChipR

Ed,
I am not an expert on the F-E-F by any means nor did I have any input on the project so I am not in a position to answer technical questions regarding this model. I defer to Hot water for technical answers but I will say that I was fortunate enough to be in Cheyenne, WY., in 1954 to see the real things.

I did have substantial input on the B&O Q-4 mikado and will state that there are areas in which a more expensive model (Key, Kohs,etc.)would have additional detail features (if they ever made a Q-4 which we know they won't).

One of the most obvious "flaws" in Sunset Models locomotives to me is the 5 foot track gauge they are built to. On the other hand, that is a "flaw" I appreciate since that is the gauge of my track.

ChipR,
The Frog Snot does increase the strain on the gears just as much as added weight. More power is being applied to the track to pull the heavier load. How pulling the heavier load is accomplished is irrelevent. In addition, the Frog Snot wears off. Guess where it has to accumulate. On the track. Not a good choice in my book.
Regards,
Ed

eheil I appreciate your honesty. Nice to see some toneing down of the discussion. Ed

My FEF "today" arrives tomorrow. Why am I a sucker for UP on the east coast dang it?

I cure the flaw, sometimes by making large 17/64 scale models, and sometimes by converting the gauge to something more fitting the smaller models.

As for lowering the temperature, there will always be flaws in models. It is only recently that inexpensive scale models have become available, and that is because the 3-railers are demanding them. I think a missing tail beam or an undersize cylinder block are more aggravating than a missing generator or an inaccurate headlight. But I really appreciate what is available now, and Sunset is a major producer of good stuff.

Opinion.

We now have a photo of #835 laying on her side, after a passenger train wreck, and the photo shows the three stacks beautifully. Notice I typed #835.

That is the stack that should have been on Sunset's 837. Ed

I have the KTM 2 rail FEF it is a superb model even with the original open frame motor the slow speed without any hum or stagger is remarkable,it is also a very solid model, the best.

No contest the KTM USA is the best. It is not perfect detail wise but close and the mechanism is a work of art. Are you sure it has an open frame motor? All I ha ve seen have a can motor. Ed

My oh my. My "Today" is wicked, for some reason the flaws mentioned here escapes my eye. What a beauty! Now onto the time consuming tasking of installing sound. Photos tomorrow...

Do you think it needs weight as suggested before?

Will it pull about 18 GGD cars up a 3% grade/

There is a vast difference between a KTM FEF and a KTM USA FEF. When I say "vast" think in terms of orders of magnitude. Same for the price.

Not sure what you mean by KTM USA! the KTM I refer to was imported by US Hobbies.

Guys,

Some close up views are at:

http://www.denveroscaleclub.or...ecent-photos!?page=4

Ted, I don't think it will pull 18 GGD cars up a 3% grade. Weight or Frog Snot are needed.

ChipR

ChipR thanks for posting pictures of the FEF by KTM USA. The 844's were imported exclusely for Bill Lambert and I think not many more than 10 total. Unfortunately they made the same mistake as Sunset and extended the smokebox which is in error. Look at Boilermaker's pictures earlier in the post so see that the smokebox was not extended and the FWH is tight up aginst the front of the smokebox front. For that reason I do not consider the KTM USA 844 to be the finest in accuracy. The other KTM USA FEF-2's and 3's wilthout the worthington FWH models are and they were produced 23 years ago. Ed

quote:

Originally posted by brasman:
ChipR thanks for posting pictures of the FEF by KTM USA.

Wait, are the photos Chip linked to the KTM or Sunset model?

Ed Brasman,

Sorry, I should have made it clear that the photos are of the Sunset/3rd Rail FEF-3, advertised as "Yesterday".

The side rods do not appear to be as tapered as those in photos in Kratville's "Mighty 800". As you say, a photo on page 85 shows the Worthington SA feedwater heater up tight to the front of the smokebox.

All this being said, I think it looks good and runs well and is thousands of dollars less than a KTM USA. On our layout, the closest a guest gets to any train is about 5' and quite often the trains are 40' away.

ChipR

Then ChipR you should enjoy your model and not be like me and go detail nutty. Ed

This message has been edited. Last edited by: brasman,

Everybody has their own way of enjoying the hobby. A little later I will post some photos of the KTM USA model (elsewhere; I have lost the ability to post photos here) for those who might want the very best. They come at a price, and I think I could sell an airplane and buy three of them if I wanted. But I'd rather have a less expensive model that sort of looked ok.

Thanks to Chip for the siderod photo - I agree that they could be slightly better, but they are as good as the MG-KTM, so they will pass my less than critical standards. The Lionel rods will not, so I will be replacing them on my rather spectacular Lionel, along with the entire cylinder block.

Those of us who are less discerning are actually quite lucky - we get to enjoy a really neat hobby without losing a whole lot of sleep. On the other hand, when they leave out a boiler taper, I too can find a dour mood about the whole thing.

I am counting on Michael Pitogo for the pictures... He is a pro! Can't wait to see that beauty from Sunset.

Yves

Yves,

These were quick snapshots taken as we broke the loco in. No lights, no time composing the photos, no post-production editing. Just taken to help people see what the model looks like.

Regards,
Chip Rovetta

I will shoot some better shots over the weekend.

Controlled studio lighting (HO Scale OMI)

Controlled studio lighting (S Scale PBL)

Wow, Eric! Talk about fantastic photography! Any photos of the subject matter (UP FEF-3 by Sunset/3rd Rail)?

Hi,
I repeat the question asked by someone else: What is the difference between KTM and KTM USA? or do you mean KTM USH?
Thanks,
Ed

Ed Kelly,

Photos of a KTM USA (NOT, repeat NOT, a KTM USH) are posted on another forum. The ultimate. Expect to pay 8 to 10 times what a Sunset 3rd Rail FEF-3 costs.

ChipR

Ed Brasman,

I, and the other Club members, do enjoy this loco. I too count and measure rivets. At the end of the day, I have to ask "Is it good enough?" In this case it is but in others it isn't.

ChipR