A couple weeks ago I received the gray "in service" model, road # 837 as was reported in one of the other threads on this model. The loco weighs 7.5 lbs, which some might think a little light for a 2R model of a big 4-8-4. But weight is a personal preference matter, so I suggest that owners run their locos on their pikes with their desired trains before taking the loco apart to add weight.

I think the loco looks neat, even though it has the anomaly reported elsewhere. (Green class lights instead of white on an "extra" train and no switch to turn off the tender markers--which should not be lit when pulling a train.) I really like the running lights above the drivers--similar to Sunset's streamlined NYC "Empire State" Hudson.

Hot Water noted the tender marker light matter & suggested adding a small switch on the tender (perhaps under a water hatch or under the floor?) to turn off the rear marker lights. I have a couple of other suggestions for improving this model & making it more user-friendly. If others might feel the same, please make yr opinions known to Scott Mann, as we cannot expect him to act on comments from just one person.

I think the loco's lead truck could use more vertical movement. My long-held view is that one should be able to lift the front driver flanges clear of the rails while the lead truck wheels remain on the track. If the lead truck lacks sufficient vertical movement, it can derail at the tops of grades, especially if the track curves "out from under."

Also, I wish the instruction pamphlet had included disassembly instructions for loco & tender, and a wiring diagram. My loco made one circuit of a friend's layout & stopped dead. That layout was not fully instrumented & we couldn't tell why it stopped. On testing it at home, the locomotive seemed ok, so I took a close look at the tender. There are two wires (green & red) running from inside the tender body shell to pickup wipers in the tender's 4-whl lead truck. The red wire had come loose at its solder connection to the wiper.

As not enough wire slack was available, I had to separate the tender floor from the body shell. There are four short screws at the four corners of the floor. Removing those did not allow the floor to come off. Two more screws (about 1/4" long) connect the front of the centipede bed frames through the floor into the body shell, and they have to come off as well in order to free the floor.

Unfortunately, during the course of handling, the two wires that connect the loco to (a printed circuit board on) the tender came loose, as did a third, narrower wire that runs from a unit in the tender body to the pc board. So my loco is out of service until I can get a wiring diagram from Sunset & resolder those connections to the proper points.

NOTE: The above is a description of a problem I encountered & I do NOT imply that such is in any way "typical" of these models. I describe it in case someone else might need to separate the tender floor & body so they know what screws are involved. Also, if anyone has a similar problem, I suggest drawing yr own wiring diagram BEFORE something comes unsoldered. No stress relief is provided for the wires between the loco and the tender (pc board), and I may try to add such a feature. Perhaps just gluing the wires to the tender floor would keep wire movement from affecting the solder connections on the pc board.

Thanks for the info on the weight. I hadn't weighed mine.

Woody,

What you are describing is typical of late Sunset steam engines. They are very nice engines, but the electrical wiring sucks. I had similar concerns and criticism on my articulated SP AM-2, recently.

I have the feeling that the brass construction and motor/drive parts of the prototypes are carefully reviewed and verified before production, but that the electrical part is not totally under the control of Scott Mann, or at least that he may not see the final way it is done by the factory.

Yves

You are right, we don't supply the builders 2 Rail wiring. We trust them to do a good job with that. So I will show the builder your complaints so it doesn't happen again. In both cases, AM-2 and FEF, these are first models for these builders (new builders). So improvement is easy to make for the next production run. As time goes on we will be putting DCC ready wiring in our 2 Rail offerings and then we will be supplying all the necessary wiring, making these issues dissapear.

Scott

As a further example of Scott Mann's superb dedication to customer service, he phoned me on Wednesday 10-21. (I'd not been able to phone Sunset until that morning.) I was told the technicians are out until Friday, but that if they can find one of the tenders to open he'll try to email me a photo showing where the wires go. He also said he'd notify the builder & ask them to send him a wiring diagram.

In the meantime, I disconnected the pairs of wires from the tender lead truck and rear lights to the pc board. (Those have plastic plug & socket connectors; the other two small-diameter wires between the tender body and the pc board do not have quick-disconnects.)) I then coupled the tender to the loco drawbar, but did not connect the electrical plug between the loco & tender. I found the loco runs ok in both direction and that the loco lights work properly. Of course the tender is "dark," but I can live without a working backup light as long as the loco can pull a train. I'm looking forward to taking it to a UP modeler's pike in a few days for a running session. I know we'll both enjoy seeing it pull a train, especially a consist of UP two-tone gray passenger cars. (He has some.)

woody,

I've already gutted my tender but here is the way I remember it. The tether between tender and loco helps bridge the track power. The red and green wires from the tender truck go into the input of the bridge rectifier and is also connected to the thick back wires for the tether. The thin wire going into the directional lighting board of the tail light also solders into the same red and green pickups. The loco itself has its own set of boards and just require the drawbar to transmit fireman's side power.

Mike--

Thanx for yr input. When I tested my loco on my friend's pike on Oct 23rd, I did reconnect the wires from the marker lights to the pc board and the wires between loco & tender. Those connections lit the tender markers. The short is thus narrowed to the wires between the pc board & the tender lead truck, which apparently power the backup light. I've not tried reconnecting that & am still waiting on the wiring diagram.

I may take the lead truck off again and closely examine the connection for the red wire that I reattached to its pickup. That pickup (for the right side wheels) may no longer be insulated from the lead truck bolster & that might be the cause of the problem.

But in its present state, the loco runs ok. The red light on the smokebox flashes when the loco is in reverse--a neat touch imo. That light was also used when the loco was standing on the main, & the "ultimate" wiring plan for it would allow that light to be on when the loco is standing. How that could be done without track power is a problem for electrical engineering types, but I expect that with a constant track-power control system like DCC et al, that light could be selected to illuminate with the loco not moving.

As to operation, my friend has an 11-car heavyweight passenger train, all 2-tone gray, including five brass cars. The plastic cars seem to weigh at least two pounds or more. The 4-8-4 could not pull that train up a 2% grade by itself, so we coupled it ahead of my friend's UP light 4-6-2 (also painted 2-tone gray) built on an All-Nation chassis, replacing two diesel F-units that normally accompany the 4-6-2.

The doubleheader worked pretty well. We later removed one car due to the amount of slipping of the two locos (on the upgrade). My friend wired the couplers between my tender & the Pacific because the 4-8-4 I think is geared faster & tended to pull away from the Pacific, even on the level. Both locos spin their drivers on the grade's "hump" (which may be a tad more than 2%) but I think they look really nice together with an all 2-tone gray consist.

Yellow has been UP's passenger color for many years, and I have no argument with UP fans & others who like those cars. I just happen to think that 2-tone gray was perhaps the most "elegant" passenger scheme used during the steam era. I think the NYC used it first beginning with the 1938 "20th Century Limited" but I know that scheme was also used by the SP and UP.

Sunset has produced one fantastic-looking model here imo, and the longer thread on this model has a recent post from Scott Mann stating that the 2R versions have sold out. I think that's good news for O scale, because it means that Sunset has made a quick profit on that model & has money to build new models!

A couple more things I've been meaning to mention:

1. Many kudos to Sunset for painting the driver axle ends black. This means the model looks "right" and not like a 3R model with bright shiny steel axle ends in the center of black driving wheels. I've been commenting (come might say "harping") on this point for years, and on this model Sunset has made the extra effort to produce a prototypical-appearing loco. I hope their future models will be made this way also.

2. The loco box (for my gray version) also includes a pair of white gloves in a plastic envelope. I think this is another "first" for Sunset, so the collectors can pick up their locos without getting greasy fingerprints on them. A "classy" touch, imo.

I'm sure the 11 car train, including some brass, was quite heavy. Still, there seems to be a traction issue. I'll add some weight to mine.

Ted,

I have not placed a magnet against the driver tires on my loco, so I cannot state whether they are carbon steel. They are bright & shiny, which means they are either made of stainless steel, nickel silver or plated. Plating takes some hours of running time to wear off. Whether the loco has "traction problems" depends on the layout and weight of train being pulled. At 7.5 lbs, it might do just fine on level layouts or grades less steep & long than on my friend's pike.

The visible 2% grade on my friend's pike is long and includes a 180-degree curve at one end of the room. The grade appears to have a "hump" approx 4-5 feet beyond the curve. My friend says the grade reduces from that point to the top, but it may be that the grade is actually steeper at that point and just returns to 2% for the rest of the way up. What is certain is that at the "hump" all of the passenger train is on the grade and most of the cars are on the curve as well.

And as I've previously stated, all my friend's cars are weighted to stay on the track, because he likes to pull prototype-length trains. Passenger cars weigh as least two pounds & I think most may be heavier. Even with extra weight in the locos, all his trains require double-headed steamers or multiple-unit diesels, and his freight trains (up to 65 cars) often have pushers also, because of the tough upgrade climbs on his pike.

Pictures of that grade appeared in an article I wrote for O SCALE NEWS # 185, March 2008. I have photos taken of the 4-8-4 with the gray train taken on 10-31. I can email these if you or someone has the capability to post them to this thread.

Woody,

I examined how the drivers put the weight down. The 8 wheels I had were not balanced. The two inside drivers have weaker springs and did not have enough pressure on the cover plate to push the journals down far enough for the drivers to reach the rail head and make contact friction. They were basically along for the ride until it goes over uneven hump section. The outside two drivers have very stiff springs and on my model it is ever so slightly a three wheeler. I used a very flat surface rotated around with flex track and on the flanges. I added some washers to the screws for the cover plate near the two middle drivers to allow these more journal travel. I also added a small amount of shimming to one side of the front drivers to fix the 3 wheeling making all 4 of the stiff outer drivers square. It has improved traction a little but I think the best balance would be better springs all around matched to some added weight.

Thanks for the info. I'll give it a try.