quote:

Originally posted by Mike McNally:
If all else fails, try to run it through all of your layout.

Even if it runs well it's still gonna look crappy with those duelies on it :>)
......dave
!

Mike,

I'm pretty sure it will derail or bind at frog points or guard rails of a railroad built to NMRA specs. 1/32 of an inch off is 1.5" real inches imagine if GE delivered locomotives that were 1.5" too narrow.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McNally:
If all else fails, try to run it through all of your layout. What have you got to lose? If it runs, why waist hours of your time measuring and talking with the dealer and manufacturer. Life is too short. Move on to something enjoyable.

11:00 am,tuesday am,still no phone call from jim weaver.john p. dunn sr.

Recieved phone call form AtlasO reps-Bob Lawrence and Jerry Kimble-they will be coming to the Cherry Valley O scale club this evening to put my 0-6-0 thru the miriad of handbuilt/atlas trackwork/switches to see if their are any problems-anyone in the Philly/South Jersey area is welcome to come-they will be their by 7:30 PM.I for one am quite pleased that AtlasO if taking this to the level that the Shaffen family built their reputation when Atlas first came into being.I look forward to the visit and if you come,they also informed me about some interesting stats-but you have to be their to hear them-call me if you need directions-cell-609-432-2871.John P. Dunn Sr.

Wow! I sure am glad I had previously planned to be going down there tonight. I wouldn't want to miss this. It should be very interesting. I met Jerry once before at Greenburg's Edison train show. It was nice talking to him and he seemed like real nice guy.

Gentlepeople,

This is a good reply from Atlas. However, it does not address the real issue, i.e., are all the wheels to NMRA standards.

Better yet, are the wheels AND track to the NMRA RP25 dimensions.

ChipR

quote:

Originally posted by Hudson J1e:
Wow! I sure am glad I had previously planned to be going down there tonight. I wouldn't want to miss this. It should be very interesting. I met Jerry once before at Greenburg's Edison train show. It was nice talking to him and he seemed like real nice guy.

Hey Phil!
How about posting some photos here of this test tonight?
Rather than just go by a single source, let's hear Atlas' side of the story.
(I'm taking a guess here, that it has to do with production costs, of having at least 6 different part# to contend with)

Best of luck with the test run.

Why is it that the Silver 2 Rail DC version has been out for months without any complaints? Seems like they must have been well received or we would have heard by now. I wonder if maybe there a just very a final few units with problems as the builder finished up the run.

JJ

Yep, I'd like to hear the test run results as well. And I'd like to hear how they justify 3R drivers on a 2R loco regardless of how it handles the trackwork. I must admit they're brave souls coming to an operating session to test their loco. Maybe they're bringing lots of beer and snacks to soften you up.

Butch

quote:

Originally posted by up148:
And I'd like to hear how they justify 3R drivers on a 2R loco regardless of how it handles the trackwork.
Butch

I asked Bob Lawerence that question and he replied that the width was within tolerence. I did not press the question any further.

Hmmm...In tolerance?

Go back to page 1 and look at the photos of the Atlas drivers with the track gage on them. For those of you not familiar with this gage, that large notch in the middle of the gage is for testing the overall width of the wheel including the flange. If you tell me that you believe that those wheels will fit inside that slot then I guess to you the Atlas wheels are within tolerance. According to the instructions that come with the gage, a wheel machined at the maximum NMRA wheel width should just about fit that slot. There is no way those wheels are going to fit in there!

I hope Phil Gatto does measure those wheels this evening with a good micrometer. I will have the chance to do so on Thursday evening at a friend's home. It will be interesting to get some real measurements. My guess is the overall width of the tires will be about 0.230 inches based on my measurements of hi rail driver tires prior to machining.

Joe

I didn't know the wheel was supposed to fit in that slot. Heck, the tread less the flange won't fit in the slot. Maybe Bob Lawrence meant 3R tolerance because it sure wasn't 2R.

Hopefully, something got resolved last night. If Atlas made a mistake and agrees to fix it I guess all is well. Let's see what the bigboys have to say.

Butch

A 172 tire/wheel is not supposed to fit. The opening is around .170". The NMRA instruction sheet says the wheel should "almost fit". If it drops in it's too narrow.

I guess they could say, "Well, it doesn't fit so it must be within tolerance".

I've been doing a lot of driver machining over the past few years and, depepending on what the customer wants I've been making the tires/wheels from .115" (proto 48) to .155" with no complaints. I think the .145" looks good. My opinion.

In my mind, damaged as it is (my mind that is), Atlas got it way wrong. Too bad. Shouldn't happen.

Jay C

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Jay C,

Dear List,last night we had Bob Lawrence,Nat'l sales mgr & Jerry Kimble,Sales Rep(and model railroader) of Atlas0 visit our club.We put the 0-6-0 on the track and put it thru its paces-traversing thru atlas and hand built track and switches-the loco ran FLAWLESSLY,the double reduction motor had her crawl without a hitch-so..... the question to them was the gauge and width of the treads-Jerry stated that Atlas purposely had the flanges out of gauge to conform to the tread width and astonishing to me,as well as the half dozen or so onlookers,it ran very,very well.Now,as a NMRA member and BOD of our local NMRA division,my personal hopes is any future projects will conform to NMRA standards-tried and true for sixty plus years-also,I would like to thank Bob and Jerry for taking the time to explain this and also answering the miriad of questions fielded them by the group.I myself have decided to have Joe F. do the gauging/HOWEVER/I now can take down my Buyer Beware sign on this piece-you will just have to decide what you,the modeller,will do with yours.Also,we should all thank Bob Thatcher of AM hobbies for his intersession on this matter-he was the behind the scenes guy who actually was responsible for this meeting,BTW,I did not buy the loco from Bob Thatcher-he is a class act and desearves our business.Phil Gatto took measurements of the tires-he will give a separate report. John P. Dunn Sr.

quote:

Originally posted by jdunn:
Jerry stated that Atlas purposely had the flanges out of gauge to conform to the tread width and astonishing to me,as well as the half dozen or so onlookers,it ran very,very well./I now can take down my Buyer Beware sign on this piece-

Hi John,Don't be too fast to take down that sign. A lot of folks would like to be aware of these wide treads before buying this loco and your notice is a perfect heads up, even if it runs fine the appearance must suffer. Can you explain how the tight gauged wheels made it thru switches without jumping over guard rails at the frogs? What is the back to back wheel gauge? something doesn't add up.......dave

John, if this forum had a rep points system, I would max it out with positive rep!
In a day, when flame wars are all too easily ignited, you posting the "other side" of this story is a breath of fresh air.

Now, the issue at hand, is it going to be worth it to machine the treads to NMRA standards, as it would seem that it's more of a cosmetic issue, than an operational reliability issue.

I have to ask, is the driver tread even visiable on the layout? If not (my opinion here) why bother?

If it is glaring, by all means, have Joe machine them down!

Wow! What a great night! A very special thanks to Bob and Jerry for making the trip down to our club last night.

Let me start with the 0-6-0. Bob and Jerry told us some really interesting things about other Atlas products.

As John mentioned above the locomotive is slightly out of gauge by design. The treads are wider than NMRA specs. Bob and Jerry said Atlas did this on purpose to make the locomotive perform better operationally. We put it thru it's paces on our cub layout which is 98% Atlas track and switches but also has a good number of scratchbuilt switches too. Not once did the 0-6-0 derail. In fact I liked the locomotive so much I am going to call up Norm's and see if mine is still available.

quote:

Can you explain how the tight gauged wheels made it thru switches without jumping over guard rails at the frogs? What is the back to back wheel gauge? something doesn't add up.......dave

I really can't explain it. All I can say is it ran great on our layout. My guess is it isn't out of gauge far enough to cause those problems. I did measure the tread and on my micrometer I got 0.237" ± 0.005". I say that because I do not have an expensive micrometer and it could be off by a little. BTW, dang Joe your guess was practically spot on! So basically it is off by 1/16". If you really look at the treads closely you can see they are a little wide. As I said after last night I still want to buy this locomotive. If it really bothers me I will do what John is doing and ask Joe F to resize the wheels. IMHO, [to my admittedly untrained eye] the wheel tread is the only imperfection on this locomotive. It runs great as did the 3R version I saw at York. With the exception of the tread this really is a 2 rail locomotive adapted for 3 rail. It is up to any perspective buyer wether the tread size will bother them. I don't think it is going to bother me.

Everyone at the club agreed (wow-how often do you hear that) that we would prefer Atlas in the future stays with the NMRA specs.

Other Atlas News:
For the first time EVER 2 RAIL OUTSOLD 3 RAIL ON A LOCOMOTIVE RUN! The 2nd run of the F units 2R outsold 3R by a 60/40 margin. Wow! I thought that was awesome.

The reason Atlas choose the 0-6-0 as their first steam locomotive was because a Mr.Shaffer (sp?) of Atlas had the plans to do this locomotive in the 1970's. As a commeration to him this was their first Founder's Series engine. Their next steam locomotive we are told will be something really special. I'm looking forward to that announcement. It sounded very exciting.

I don't want you guys to think that the club held back on Bob and Jerry. You can ask them youself. Althought in a polite tone, Bob and Jerry had to field some very tough criticisms about some Atlas products. Things that were mentioned were:

• will there be additions to 2R track line?
  
• guardrails on switches
  
• making the holes line up for KDs
  
• Gaps [my personal pet peeve] between trucks and frame
  
• 1:48 scale autos
  

I have to get back to work right now and will finish my report later this afternoon.

I'm interested to see how it would run at NYSME. We have track work that is not forgiving to off gauge models. The model must also pass inspection including going through an NMRA wheel gauge.

Its both suprising and nice to know that a 2r engine outsold a 3r engine for once. This is very good news because I suspect that Atlas O will only invest in closing the gap and narrowing the trucks on 2 rail equipment if the market size justifies it. We can ask for this on 2 rail equipment all we want to no avail, but if Atlas begins to see 2 rail as a large market instead of just a side market then the changes will be made. Finally, the response from Atlas about the steam switcher is truly amazing; I can't imagine any other company going to such lenghts to prove its product to the customers.

Ok, I'm back. [That was an ez repair]

Let me try to remember as much as I can.

Jerry, told us that Atlas has 4 people on staff that do nothing else but research. This explains [IMHO] why Atlas gets things right more than any other manufacturer. Bob and Jerry explained how some locomtoives such as the MTH Caterpiller diesel sold like hotcakes. I have nothing against non-prototypical paint schemes or the folks who like them but one thing I really like about Atlas is I know for certain that if I pick up a blue Atlas box at a train show or hobby shop that it is a prototypical paint scheme. With other manufacturers I have been burned a few times by buying something I would not have bought if I had known it didn't exist in real life. I do own a few of these items but I bought with the knowledge ahead of time in which case I knew what I was getting. All I ask is I know before I buy. Sometimes one doesn't have to time to do the research like when you are at a train show.



Bob and Jerry told us that things such as gaps and motors are often discussed at Atlas. I was very surprised to hear that Atlas is actually considering using the horizontal drive in larger locomotives. I personally think this would be awesome as it would eliminate the gap problem and slow speed operation would be improved significantly.

Most of the club expressed the opinion of expanding the 2R track line. The main track sections wanted were suggested and Bob wrote them down. We asked for #1)larger radii curves, #2)double slip switch, and #3)curved switches. I personally feel the curved switches are the most imprtant because as we all know 2R eats up a lot of room and curved turnouts can save space. Although, I think all 3 are needed. Bob's response was that Atlas is defintiely going to expand the track line in the next few years.

Bob also said that the percentage of 2R products sold has been steadily growing in the 6 years since he joined the firm. The overall percentage (all products including track) is that it is 70/30 in favor of 3 rail.

And Jerry told us why 2R TMCC went by the waiste side. It was mainly because it was not compatible with conventional DC layouts.

Oh here is one for you conventional DC guys:
I asked Bob and Jerry that a lot of guys who run conventional DC have complained that they can't MU their Silver diesels with their Gold diesels. Jerry's response was that Atlas is aware of that and that they are currently working on it. I also asked if this was possible in HO? Bob and Jerry did not know. I thought to myself if they can get those two types (S & G) to MU together it would be great for the conventional DC guys.

The only bad news I got, and this seemed to bother me more than anyone else, is that Bob told me that Atlas may have jumped the gun by announcing the 1:48 scale automobiles. They might not be able to do them with at a competitve price point in which case they might not be done at all. Folks this stuff is still up in the air at Atlas and nothing is final yet.

That's about all I can remember. Again special thanks to Jerry and Bob for making the trip down to our club. I had a great time and enjoyed meeting you guys. It is very good to hear that behind the scenes Atlas is working on stuff for the 2 railer and that 2R sales have continued to grow.

quote:

I can't imagine any other company going to such lenghts to prove its product to the customers.

I know of at least one other company that would. Steve from RCS offered to come to my house to look at his transfer table when I was having trouble with it and I'm just a regular guy. In no way am I minimizing what Atlas did just thought I'd mention that Steve offerd to do the same thing for me. I am very greatful for Atlas's efforts in this matter.

Oh, and one other thing I forgot to mention. Before Bob and Jerry came down they extensively tested out the 0-6-0 on the Atlas test layout at their headquarters in Hillside. They also had no problems running it.

It sure was great to have the ear of two high profile reps from a major train company for a few hours. You guys are welcome back anytime!

Hi All,
I also was in attendance at the testing of the 0-6-0. It is a beautiful engine BUT I do not think it is proper to violate one standard (the gauge of the drivers) to justify the violation of another standard (the wheel width). If I remember correctly, this was the justification provided for the deviations from the standards.
Bob and Jerry were cordial and receptive of the many suggestions put to them BUT they are not the decision makers. I kept getting the feeling that dollars and cents were the overriding factor in all Atlas' decisions. Yes, it is a business BUT sometimes you just have to do things right even if it costs a little more. Obviously, Atlas does not think this way.
Only the future will tell what Atlas will do and what compromises will be made to the 2-rail products in the search for economies of scale.
To end on a positive note: I am not a member of the club but was welcomed cheerfully. I made some new friends, renewed old friendships and had a very enjoyable evening.
Regards,
Ed Kelly

from Jim Waever on the Atlas O website

"Fellow Enthusiasts,
The best advice I can give you is instead of conjecturing, RUN THE LOCOMOTIVE! Last night Atlas had the pleasure of meeting Mr. John Dunn and the Cherry Valley O Scale Club. Mr. Dunn was the original poster on the OGR Forum about his concerns with the wheel gauge. Since Atlas had already done extensive performance testing on this loco, we wanted to address his concerns personally. While I was not able to attend, Jerry Kimble and Bob Lawrence readily offered to be there for the operation of the locomotive (Mr. Dunn had not as yet run the loco). The club has an extensive layout comprised of Atlas O and hand-laid track. The locomotive operated FLAWLESSLY over all sections of the layout. Mr. Dunn was very impressed with the sound and the attention to detail of this locomotive as well.
As Mr. Thorpe noted above, Atlas O stands behind every product we make. Our customer service department ranks up there with the best. As noted by numerous consumers, the repair turn-around time is probably the best in the industry due to the fact that we have very few operational returns.
Just to let you know, this is not the first time we have made a direct offer to visit a consumer with a perceived problem. I have made 3 visits myself as well as offering technical assistance to others. Atlas stands by its products.
Jim"