Originally posted by CSX Troy:
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Originally posted by Bob Bubeck:
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Why would one reissued set per year have to be an either or scenario. I believe there is room in Lionel's capital budget for both new engines and reissues. Besides, I would think it would more cost effective to issue product from original tooling vs. something brand new. Also, I think the opportunity to buy reissue AF sets would expand Lionel's customer base and increase the potential sales of new product like the Big Boy.
I wish it was not an either or scenerio, as well. But, it has not been that way. To make matters more difficult, original tooling (depending upon its condition) is not necessarily a path to cost effectiveness. The recent Northern was done in the end with virtually all new tooling -- outside and in, the notable exception being the pilot. If one is going to make what is for all intents and purposes a practically new engine, one might as well go whole hog. The new Big Boy (TMCC/RS) is going to sell very very well, regardless of reissued sets, because it IS new and has not been done by AF, SHS, or AM.
Many old classic steam engines are available at reasonable cost. A 322 Hudson or a PRR K5 312 Pacific in E condition can be had for much less that Lionel could ever build a new one for. York has table after table of vintage Gilbert made in New Haven, Conn. of all types, stripes, and condition. New versions of the originals often have not turned out to be much like the originals. If a classic set was done per year and it did not detract from doing genuinely new trains, I could support that. Pieces such as the 21004 deserve to be done and really should be done. But, so much has not been made available in S, I'd rather see priority paid to all-new trains with the new features.
Opinions were asked for, and the contrarian view is being offered.
Bob Bubeck
Bob,
Fist, it appears I have offended you and humbly appologize. This post was in the form of a question and I am not on here simply to receive the answer I want to hear. The spirit of this forum is to comment and then respond in a discussion format.
Being primarily an O gauger, I can clearly see the need for new product in S gauge. Hopefully it will come to be.
That being said, American Flyer has a history and tradition in its trains that many new people would like to participate in.
I would point out several things:
1.) I think we could both agree the AF line from Lionel could benefit from a more diverse line of product. Having quality reissues along side new ones covers more potential customers. I know several O gaugers who expressed interest in TRUE reissue sets and have also heard from quite a few S gaugers who would like to own a MINT, postwar Gilbert set, but either cannot afford one or would like a set to run that will not devalue their original.
I would submit this for consideration: More product sold = More interest in R&D capital = A better chance of getting something from new tooling actually made. This is a win-win for everyone and our hobby.
2.) I'm not sure we are talking about the same grade of Gilbert product. I know an E/E- 312 or 322 can be had on E-bay or at show for a reasonable price.
This is not what I am talking about! The new Conventional Classics are being advertised from about $275 - $385 depending on the store. If you have any MINT, FACTORY SEALED Gilbert sets like what I am proposing, please, please sell them to me for the price range of the Convetional Classics. At $275-$385. I will pay you cash and come pick them up.
You can then use the $ to buy new pacifics, mikes, Big Boys, or whatever you like.
3.) Please correct me if I am mistaken, but the Big Boy is not from new tooling either. I understand it is the K-line Mini-Boy from their O gauge line, same as the swing bridge. While this engine is a good idea that is indeed new to S gauge, it is not an entirely "whole hog" new engine.
From an R&D standpoint, the BB is as far removed from the idea of a completely new I-4 pacific as the idea of a reissue set and is beside the point. If the Big Boy sells as expected, Lionel would more than likely consider producing an engine like the Allegheny (which was done in semi-scale by Kline just like the Big Boy) than something like a NH I-4 with matching cars. I too would like to see an I-4 w/ cars, but if we are going under the assumption of limited capital, the I-4 w/ completely new cars is not feasible either.
4.) I do not see the logic or connection in saying that becasue the Big Boy will sell, then there is no need to try and increase total sales revenue and the potential customers generated by reissue sets. Or that because reissues were done poorly in the past they should not be done now. Nobody wants poor quality product. I would expect a reissue done very well and to high product standards.
The idea is to build a "product funnel" at different age and price points. There are young people who will buy reissues just as there are older hobbists who are eager for something new. A diverse product line becomes more enjoyable for everyone buy supporting both.
I am not suggesting that an opportunity be taken away, just the opposite. Is there enough interest to justify MORE capital being spent by Lionel to offer quality reissue sets along side a new item like the Big Boy.
