Just prospecting starting out in S and I'm a big fan of Postwar Gilbert until the mid-1950s. From a reliability and quality standpoint, am I better off sticking with Gilbert or is the Flyonel a consistent, quality product?

I'm asking as an operator (not a collector) and I could care less about TMCC and digital sounds.

My S helper stuff & AM trains run so well I tend to forget about the flyer/lionel

They are the energizer rabbit of trains!

Old flyer is great and pretty cheap at times but the new stuff is expensive and only ok at times
Try S helper - I did and never went back!

The new Flyer is pretty decent, much better graphics and painting and many more road names than the original Gilbert. The can motors do run smoother than the old motors though the smoke is not as good and I miss the choo-choo on the steamers. However, my new Northern has Railsounds with an awesome whistle. A lot of accessories have been rerun including some rare ones. I think the prices are reasonable considering the small production runs. IMHO the Flyonel PA diesels are way better than the originals.

John

I like the old Gilbert things too, but in my opinion, the new things all run much more smoothly and reliably. My Flyonel locos all have reliable reverse units and run slower (if you want) than the Gilbert versions. I too, couldn't care less about TMCC and digital sounds (outside of a horn and bell). Both the American Models and S Helper Service locos are on par with anything in any scale as far as reliability and performance. Very nice. As far as rolling stock goes, the new Flyonel items are far superior in graphics and paint. There are some folks who dislike the new trucks and couplers, but I don't mind them. They roll a bit better than the Gilbert ones thanks to the new tapered axle ends and plastic inserts in the trucks. The rolling stock from AM and SHS rolls so great, that you can literally blow on them to make them go down the track. If you're a fan of post war Gilbert, then the new Flyonel is fairly faithful to the originals, and runs much nicer. If you shop around, you can get locos and rolling stock for a reasonable price, depending on what you are interested in.

I too am an operator who simply likes to watch the trains go down the tracks. But then, I like all sorts of S trains, no matter the type, hi-rail, tin plate, scale, etc. My layout is heavily toy like, but that's my choice. You can see it on my club's website. I also like salvaging things from junk boxes and giving them new life. My collection of Gilbert trains runs occasionally, but I prefer running the newer things.

That's one of the nice things about this S gauge/scale hobby. There's room for everyone. So if you decide to join us, we welcome you! If not, then stick around and see what we're all about.

Jerry Poniatowski
Registrar, 2010 Spring S Spree
Dearborn, MI

quote:

I too am an operator who simply likes to watch the trains go down the tracks.

It took me a while to accept the fact I like to build more than run trains.I have added on so many times I can barely fit myself in the room anymore!
I guess I am an engineer in real life since I like to build but i don't actually build anything anymore at work so my trains are the only thing I can look at and say, "I built that!"
I am sure I am a minority in that aspect but it's mine and I can if I want!

Well, unfortunately the answer to your question is "That depends".

As others have mentioned, the graphics on modern stuff are far superior to what Gilbert was able to do. There is a huge variety of colorfully-decorated Flyonel rolling stock out there in essentially new-in-box condition, so that is an advantage. However, a lot of people (myself included) detest the freight car trucks Lionel has used for about that last 15 years. Gilbert trucks were oversized, but you kind of got used to their appearance. The Flyonel trucks are *grotesquely* oversized, which makes them pretty hard to overlook. Also, unless you find them on clearance, Flyonel rolling stock can be a bit pricey. And it's a little hard to believe, but after 30 years of trying, Lionel STILL has not been able to make a knuckle coupler that operates as well as postwar Flyer. On the positive side, Lionel offers models of prototypes that Gilbert never built (such as the USRA Mikado, Pacific, Big Boy, GE U-boat). And the features on many of the Flyonel locomotives can't be matched by Gilbert postwar (although some have retrofitted their ACG engines with modern sound and command control electronics). Many folks question whether this is an advantage compared to the robustness of the Gilbert sound and reverse units, pointing to the possible shortage of electronic repair parts in the future. Gilbert steam locomotives (especially the common varieties) are very inexpensive and are easy to get running even if they have sat for years. On the other hand, Gilbert diesels had some design weaknesses and freqently require precision machine work to restore them to top operating condition.

Personally, I run a mix of classic AC Gilbert Flyer, some choice modern Flyonel pieces, Americal Models, and S Helper Service products.

I'm in a modular club (Atlantic Coast S-Gaugers, Carolinas Division) and we put a lot of run-time on our locomotives and rolling stock at shows. Hopefully I'll do the same on my layout when it's finished....

Based on my experience and observation at shows, here's what I can tell you.

First, as far as rolling stock goes, neither the original AC Gilbert nor the newer Flyonel (Sanda Kan or Michigan made) roll as well as newer designs from S-Helper Service, American Models, and Des Plaines' S-Scale America. I add that all of these products list - and sell for less than - new Flyonel production. ($70 for a boxcar in the new catalog?!?) The detail on S-Helper's product is great - in my opinion, it approaches fine-scale level - and on mass-produced prduct. S-Scale America is similar in quality.

No one has mentioned them yet in this thread, but in the waning days of K-Line Maury took old Marx (and I believe Kusan) molds, tooled new trucks and couplers for them, and sold them for around $20 apiece. These all run beautifully, as well as the brands mentioned above, and the graphics are great. As for being truly S-Scale...well, the tank cars are great, boxcars good enough, cabooses so-so, and the hoppers... not so much. But for twenty bucks, who can complain? Of course, since K-Line no longer exists as a separate entity and Lionel controls the decisions about what Sanda Kan/Kader make with the K-Line tooling, it's probably safe to say these puppies will never see the light of day again. I have no trouble finding them at the shops I frequent, and am rounding out my collection as I go. If you're not a rivet counter, you can't go too far wrong with these. They take everything we throw at 'em at shows.


As far as engines, I personally have not bought any Flyonel, save for the Docksider which is the cheapest new production loco available in S and, save for the lame smoke unit, is a great runner. Most of the guys in our club have several of these that do normal show duty without problems. Mine have run well.


Some of our members have had overheating problems with the Flyonel Mikado and Northern. Others have had no problems at all... don't know why this might be. My advice would be to buy from a Local Hobby Shop that's willing to work with you if you experience a problem with the model.

Most of my locos are newer production from SHS and American Models. The only problem I've had with any of these yet is a siderail assembly that came loose on my AM Northern and bound up.

With all that said, a lot of the guys in our club love - and run - the old AC Gilbert steam locos. And they run really, really well, especially considering their age. I've seen several of these which will do 4-6 hours of continuous running at a show without a hitch. You can get can motor conversion kits for around $35 which lower the amp draw and get rid of the headaches associated with brushes and springs.

The original AC Gilbert diesels get some run-time as well - one of our members runs the original Comet set he had as a kid around our layout - but these, as mentioned above, need more special care and need to be treated with kid gloves at a show. If you don't necessarily have a sentimental attachment to one of these, as in I-had-that-as-a-kid-now-I-can-have-it-again, I would avoid them and stick with new production.

That's a lot of 2 cents...but there it is.

Nick C.

All of the comments above are fair observations. A few of mine:

1. The new Mikados and the Pacifics I own have been great. I have had to replace the Cherry switch in the B&O Mikado (a common problem in the first production run of that engine) and one must keep an eye to see that the Seuthe smoke unit does not run dry and burn out (For safety's sake, you can always turn the smoke unit off). Aside from those two nits, they run, look and sound great with TMCC/Legacy control. The IR tether is a vast visual improvement over a wiring harness. The latest production versions use every wheel on the locomotive for current pickup. Arguably, the Mikes are equivalent for use in pulling those sharp SHS billboard reefers to their own nice 2-8-0.

2. I like to use Lionel Flyer rolling stock when/where it aesthetically combines well with vintage Gilbert and with Lionel Flyer's own "traditional" engines. The MSRPs of the freight rolling stock are frightful, however, and unless something is a must-have, I usually wait for the blow-outs and discounts in Orange Hall and/or from big dealers. A plus is that many more road names and schemes have been done by Lionel over a longer period of time than Gilbert did. Why they can't make a mechanical knuckle coupler that functions as well as Gilbert's remains one of those great mysteries of life.

3. The new heavyweights are a success. The graphics are great. The detail is good. They roll and track well. The new baggage car is a jewel. Being 13.5 inches long, they are close to scale length. Their existence has filled a vast void in the S gauge marketplace and enabled the making of two very appealing passenger sets by Lionel.

4. The new 6-wheel side drive power trucks with axle bushings for the PAs, EP-5, and the "SD"-9 are an answer to a maiden's prayer. Need I say more?

5. The new Northern was a stumble on Lionel's part. Once one replaces the original smoke unit with the undated replacement from Lionel and changes out the smoke element and bypasses/removes the voltage regulator a la Carl Tuveson in the UP versions, they become a joy to own and run. The gray UP 809 is a "looker". The MR is pretty much vice-free.

6. Some special sets are in the line that are worth serious consideration. The NYC and PRR PA passenger sets and the new steam passenger sets (the Alton and the Blue Comet) consisting of the new Pacific and heavyweights come to mind. The new (1947) Freedom Train is unique and something Gilbert never remotely thought of doing.

For what it is worth.

Bob Bubeck

I agree with all that is being said here. Can anyone comment on the durability of the new lionel engines?

I have a new northern, pacific, the New Haven EP 5, etc but have not put a lot of miles on them. My S-Helper and American Models locos have probably logged hundreds of hours of run time and have only required periodic lubrication. I hope the same is true with the new Lionel products.

By the way, did anyone notice that the side drive gears on the NH EP-5 and CN Geep are pastic? I beilive when this drive was first introduced a few years ago, they were metal.

quote:

By the way, did anyone notice that the side drive gears on the NH EP-5 and CN Geep are pastic?

I checked the side drive gears on my samples of a recent PA, an SD-9, and the new NH EP-5. The gears are metal. They are painted with a thin coat of black paint which reveals metal when it wears a bit.

Hope this helps.

Bob Bubeck