Fish, the big part or most dangerous part of the season is over. However, I think that no month is twister free. Our location here is very apt change in just a few hours. With the heat and humity we are having, just a cool front could make things interesting.
Our house is on the path of a tornado we had in 83. It had not been constructed at that time but the neighbors behind us had damage. I saw that sucker and thought I was in for a ride, but in passed about a auarter mile south of the house we lived in at the time.
The wifey, she gets kind of paranoid when the sirens go off.
Hope you stay dry.
al

OK You don't see me posting a lot, BUT I'm here almost every day reading and learning from most of you. I print out what I want to keep & I keep it in my basement with my trains (for present & future reference). When I'm on line, I love to look up info, including old posts. Having an archive to go to would be FANTASTIC! Soooooooo......
SOS
SOS
SOS

Dennis

Here's a few things to consider:

OGR uses the infopop forum software and it works for them. I have no idea what the limitations are or what could be changed to make the archival process that some of you are requesting possible. What seems clear is that OGR isn't able/doesn't want to/just plain can't do what you're requesting currently.

This doesn't make them bad guys or unresponsive to "your" needs. It simply means that the decision making process has found the perceived need one that doesn't need to be acted on for reasons that we aren't privvy to and frankly don't have to be privvy to.

Another forum I'm a member of uses the vBulletin software. The folks running it have chosen to set up membership on several different levels including a free, an annual and a lifetime subscription basis. The software itself is inexpensive. (Pricing here if you want to look.) I'm not putting their product forward as a replacement, just a comparison.

A key factor lost on folks is that in the almost 10 years of this forum the "product" has always been free of cost to the end user. With that comes some responsiblity that some people recognize and most do not. If you want to save something from the forum it's your responsibility, not the management of OGR's responsibility. They have enough to deal with that asking them to try to cherry pick the "best of" would be an unreasonable expectation without having a better revenue stream from this online enterprise. Paid memberships that offer exclusive archive access sound great but how many people would really pay for it? How much of an archive do you offer?

Most all of the subjects I see that are bandied back and forth as "keepers" are almost always repeated over the years. Some aren't but the unique and unusual are saved to my hard drive if I am interested. If I'm not interested they simply fall beneath the 1st page.

Copying whole work to publish somewhere else is a bit close to copyright infringement to me. While most of the people posting here don't seem concerned about that sort of thing there is, as always, someone somewhere who probably is and would be upset to see his "masterpiece" reproduced somewhere without his permission. While forgiveness is easy to offer it's getting the genie back in the bottle that is infinitely more difficult once it's published on the internet.

End users of a forum, a pool hall or any business are always keen on suggesting ways to build business or create a better experience that involve spending someone elses money. It's rare that a keen idea, like this one, can be made to come about without incurring more work or more cost for the site owners or one that doesn't lend itself to more liability for them.

Do I wish there was an archive? Yes. Do I see OGR changing things fundimentally to make this happen? No. Is there a better way to make it happen? Maybe but I'm not hearing it yet.

Jim

With no disrespect to anyone, I don't get the entitlement attitude that is so prevalent today. Simply because something is doable doesn't equate to an obligation to make it so.

This has been said many times but it's worth repeating because it's so simple:

If there's a thread you find valuable then save it to your own computer. How hard is that?

Here's something for your consideration, Brenner: why couldn't you save the threads to the Tolken3rail blog?

Another idea for those who want to preserve threads: How about banding together and footing the bill to start another forum where you could save valuable threads from this forum forever?

Dennis Brennan

There are signficant copyright issues with wholesale capture, replication and preservation of threads to other sites. Consider that every picture posted retains copyright back to the photographer and the ensuing complications associated with clearance of just that activity.

And, attempts to open discussion to foot the bill right here were made; the response from that indicated that a serious discussion of that option would not be entertained. So, I won't waste my time trying to help on that front - you can't help peolpe that live in silos and won't be helped.

It's not about entitlement or attitude but just attempt to save things of value -- but that's probably a waste time in this day and age where everything is disposable. By all means let's fully & completely embrace the paradigm of our era.

Anything worth having is worth abusing. And then disposing of.........

So, saving threads for personal use seems to be the only option.

We're done here.

of course, all due respect should be paid to every opinion here ... thats what having an open and honest discussion should be about. whats with the torches and the pitchforks though?!?

jim and dennis both bring up legitimate points in their posts, and ones that have been leveled before in past discussions. please keep in mind that this thread is one of many that have tried to not only bring the subject to the forefront but also to provide ideas about how ogr can best serve itself and its customers. the subjects seems to come up time and time again, but this may be the first time it has appeared in a thread completed devoted to it.

i have been in touch personally with infopop, and the software does indeed allow for these changes. i dont know if those extra options would incur a fee, but i do know that there are several options available within their current subscription rate that could make the forum more user friendly, including the ability to change the number of threads displayed at one time on the front page as is the ability to have all pictures posted come up using the same dimensions. both options would make the forum much more enjoyable at no cost. so it seems to me that some of the issues can certainly be changed IF management either wanted to or knew how to. the fact that they WONT or are UNWILLING to entertain the thought are not PROACTIVE signs.

this whole "the forum is free" argument is completely lost on me. there is a very symbiotic relationship here from my perspective. without those who post, would there even be a forum anymore? does the staff of ogrr post any articles here or start any threads? nope. the very heart and soul of the forum are its participants, who work for free for the love of the hobby and their willingness to help their fellow o gauger. in my opinion, this kind of participation on a 'pro-bono' basis given every hour of every day for free by the forum participant is much more valuable than a stagnate article in a magazine. nothing quite matches the speed and fluidity the internet provides, and time and time again its the people who post here who come to the rescue. i guess its how one defines "free": the time i take to post isnt free. the time and effort it take to take and post pictures of how-tos isnt free. incidently, my patience isnt free either, which is why i have taken up this cause.

dennis, as you know (?) the token blog was set up to do that very thing: to rescue informative and helpful how tos for future posterity. you, yourself, are a member of this very blog ... and encouraged it for that very reason. no one wants to have to start a blog or a new forum to address the issues here. as has been said time and time again, this isnt an attempt to put ogr and the forum out of business ... this is a real deal heartfelt attempt to listen to other ideas and make management aware of the issues and the options available to make the forum a better and more relevant product. ears need to open and mouths need to shut first.

i dont think anyone here lobbying for change really thinks this is the result of a secret society or the axis of evil. however, it does highlight a disturbing trend here: a general unwillingness to explore options and a close-minded and short sighted approach towards meeting their customer's needs. perhaps its a lack of understanding of how this new internet thing works or not recognizing the potential available. whatever the reason may be, the truth is that as more and more younger modelers and ogaugers come into the hobby the more internet savy they will be and by extension will be expecting more from the experience. this forum and the potential the internet has to augment and add to the magazine's appeal is ONLY A PLUS for ogr and its customers.

The way I see it, sure I can save a valuable thread to my hard drive. But how does that help the person who hasn't even joined the forum, yet? That's who we want the info saved for.

I can say yeah, I've got that info, but you have to go somewhere else to get it. Don't waste your time here.

How does that help the forum?

quote:

How does that help the forum?

however, it does highlight a disturbing trend here: a general unwillingness to explore options and a close-minded and short sighted approach towards meeting their customer's needs. perhaps its a lack of understanding of how this new internet thing works or not recognizing the potential available. whatever the reason may be, the truth is that as more and more younger modelers and ogaugers come into the hobby the more internet savy they will be and by extension will be expecting more from the experience. this forum and the potential the internet has to augment and add to the magazine's appeal is ONLY A PLUS for ogr and its customers.

You can't help people that possess, embrace or exhibit the above behavior patterns. Their failure to appreciate the value added aspect of this proposed option defines the core problem. Hence my lack of enthusiasm for bothering making attempts to help any further. I was willing to put my money where my mouth. I'll put it into uranium stocks now,

After all that my head continues to hurt from pounding it against that mad bugger's wall and I find that I have just so many other more constructive things to spend my time on....like re-arranging my sock drawer and getting my paperclip collection finally sorted out.

TTFN!

Brenner, I know that's why the blog was started. The point I was attempting to make is that you could save OGR "how to" or "product review" threads to the blog in lieu of them being purged. Obviously, you would need to get permission from the poster or you could ask that they join the blog to save their hard work.

I realize that it would be so much easier if threads were preserved on this forum but it hasn't happened and it may never happen. I'm only suggesting a possible solution to the problem. I'm not saying it's the best solution.

Vulcan, if we all saved the "how to" posts we deamed valuable to our hard drives, we could make them available to anyone who requested them. In order for that to work, someone would have to compile a list of topics and who has them. Whoever saved something would then have to let the list keeper know. The list could be put on the forum as a sticky. When someone needed info, he could email those who have the info and they could send it to them. Maybe not the most elegant solution but it could work.

Regarding my thought about starting another forum--It would only be a repository for valuable threads not a new forum to compete with this one. If there's stuff worth saving, we could post in both places. Again not the best solution but it is a solution.

I also not saying that you should give up lobbying for a forum change. I understand the reasoning. However, I have to ask what is the ultimate goal? Is it to preserve valuable information or is it to get OGR to preserve it?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: DennisB,

I had no intention of continuing this discussion since I already offered suggestions as to what I felt was the best way to proceed if changes were desired.

But, to me, things seem to be resolving themselves into the following:

1. OGR has made a decision as to how this forum should be administered.

2. Some do not agree and would like OGR to consider other options.

3. Sufficient time has passed for OGR to consider these suggestions.

4. They have decided not to make these changes. Also, they should not be required to get into a public debate to explain their business decisions.

5. Case closed.

I do not see the value in continuing to belabor the point that OGR does not think the way you do. You are saying that OGR must be wrong because you obviously think your ideas are better, and some forum members agree with you. That is just opinion.

You've stated your opinion and OGR has stated theirs by not making changes; back to #5 - case closed, and we save what we want on our own hard drives.

We don't always get our own way.

OGR is also accused of "a general unwillingness to explore options and a close-minded and short-sighted approach towards meeting their customer's needs." That also is only opinion, and, in mine, is a very broad generalization not based in fact.

I think that one has only to look at the magazine and the new website to see that productive changes are being made.

I am sure further changes are in the works to take advantage of the internet, perhaps even those that you want. All improvements can't happen overnight, and I learned early on in life that repetitive rehashing of the same arguments (I won't call it whining) doesn't speed things up.

Jim

Martin, do you need any help with that paperclip collection?

quote:

OGR is also accused of "a general unwillingness to explore options and a close-minded and short-sighted approach towards meeting their customer's needs." That also is only opinion, and, in mine, is a very broad generalization not based in fact.

I think that one has only to look at the magazine and the new website to see that productive changes are being made.

I am sure further changes are in the works to take advantage of the internet, perhaps even those that you want. All improvements can't happen overnight, and I learned early on in life that repetitive whining doesn't speed things up.

boy, i just cant seem to wrap my brain around some angles on this debate ... everyone has a right to their opinions: you know the old saying! but for the life of me, i cant figure out the "thats the way it is" mentality. is the world still flat? is the moon made of cheese? are there canals on mars with gondolas of little green men?

the issue here is quite simple: change or lay down and die. in the past year and a half i have personally witnessed and lent a sympathetic ear to many a prolific poster who said "the heck with this" and either cut down on their participation or left the forum outright, for many reasons but more often than not they felt cheated by spending so much time and effort helping out only to see it go down the drain. these posters not only possessed great talent in modeling but also a wealth of knowledge concerning various aspects of the hobby. today i can only get a hold of them via email ... and a whole new crop of potential modelers and members of our hobby suffer by not being privy to their excellent advice and good natured feedback. this argument to save valuable threads on one's hard drive is not only selfish, but completely eliminates the potential that the forum has to offer. this is a COMMUNITY of people with common interests ... why on earth cant the COMMON GOOD be the ultimate outcome? how does this help promote the hobby or encourage others to participate ... goals i surely share with many here and with the editors of the magazine and administrators of the forum. well, at least i hope thats the case.

this forum is only as good as its members ... and as one can surely tell from this thread many more members are asking for change than those who are satisfied with the status quo.

btw jim: whining is complaining without being proactive. i have been lobbying for changes for over a year now. and i have backed it up both by trying to open up intelligent debate, unhindered dialogue, and offering solutions. i am 33 years old and represent a whole new generation of o gaugers who have grown up expecting more from technology and the internet. there is limitless potential here for improvement by acknowledging that the options available to satisfy EVERYONES needs are more attainable than ever before. your great work and willingness to share have made the last three issues of the magazine wonderful. i certainly hope you would be willing to do the same for this forum.

quote:

there is limitless potential here for improvement by acknowledging that the options available to satisfy EVERYONES needs are more attainable than ever before

fish,
I think this can be paraphrased as "You can make everyone happy all the time!". As far as I know, there is only one place where that can happen, and it's not in this life!

I really do appreciate and share your desire for improvement and for helping fellow hobbyists. I too would welcome any changes that would have these results.

I guess I am just a little more "old school" as to how to effect that change. Personally, if I were in charge of things, I would not be persuaded to change by repetitive arguments. If what I heard the first time around didn't convince me, the second, third or fourth time wouldn't have any further effect. Ask my former students!

I would be a terrible target for the usual tactics of lobbyists I guess. This cause seems to be meeting with similar results.

I think the revamping of the OGR website was a good first step. I would not be surprised to see further improvements not far down the road. I just question the efficacy of some of the comments that have been directed toward the hosts of our forum.

In the meantime, I'll see you often over on the scenery forum adding whatever I can to the discussions.

Jim

points well taken jim! you always have a level head ... is that from the years or the mileage?

lets just agree to let the steam die down about from this pile. once the flies are off, lets revisit the issue.

good debate, good ideas, good times!

I think it's a little of both plus the occasional bang against the wall!

Good suggestion!

Jim

I wholeheartedly, agree. About giving it a rest I mean.

Fellas and gals,
I checked page 75 of the forum and found a thread requesting permanent storage. The month was Feburary, this year.
Al

quote:

Originally posted by Vulcan:
Martin, do you need any help with that paperclip collection?

My, my, my....I go off to a nice dark conference room for a few hours and lookee, lookee, lookee what stuff and nonsense appears.......

Hmmm....Vulcan, it turns out I might need them to pin down folks that seem to accept that thinking in lockstep and not asking questions and challenging the establishment is still the way to affect change.

Sheeple, woosles, & huffalumps, Oh My!

OGR is also accused of "a general unwillingness to explore options and a close-minded and short-sighted approach towards meeting their customer's needs." That also is only opinion, and, in mine, is a very broad generalization not based in fact.

It's not opinion, Jim, it's an experience, an adventure, and a way of life!

Facts? Precious few abound other than those based on complete supposition or is that suppositories. I'm curious as to your 5 points and when they were delivered from the mount, from all high on a firmly engraved on a Metamucil biscuit. Lots of good quality roughage in there, but it's all good since it helps you make.......great giggling googlymoogly text and few good models,

I'm probably older school than you actually, but last that I check I never surrendered my independent thought process and never sold out for any price.

So, I'm off to sort the sock drawer; I get better conversation from sock puppets and they smell better than parts of this place right now,

What'chu talkin' 'bout Fish?

Good Times indeed!

And before I forget.........more food for thought; take 3 advil and call some one else inthe morning...

By this we are all sustained: a belief in human nature
And in justice and parity...all we have is the faith to carry on.

Imperceptible the change as our votes become mere gestures
And our lords and masters determine to cast us
In the roles of serfs and slaves
In the new empire's name.

Yes and every bloody emperor claims that freedom is his cause
As he buffs up on his common touch as a get-out clause.

Unto nations, nations speak in the language of the gutter;
Trading primetime insults the imperial impulse
Extends across the screen.
Truth's been beaten to its knees; the lies embed ad infinitum
Till their repetition becomes a dictum
We're traitors to disbelieve.
With what impotence we grieve for the democratic process
As our glorious leaders conspire to feed us
The last dregs of imperious disdain
In the new empire's name.

Yes and every bloody emperor's got his hands up history's skirt
As he poses for posterity over the fresh-dug dirt.
Yes and every bloody emperor with his sickly rictus grin
Talks his way out of nearly anything but the lie within
Because every bloody emperor thinks his right to rule divine
So he'll go spinning and spinning and spinning into his own decline.

Imperceptible the change as one by one our voices falter
And the double standards of propaganda
Still all our righteous rage.

By this we are all sustained: our belief in human nature.
But our faith diminishes - close to the finish,
We're only serfs and slaves
As the empire decays.

I guess I'll simply restate a thought I posted earlier. I am a subscriber to the magazine BECAUSE of the forum. To be honest I could get OGR free, but I decided to make a committment to the magazine due to the quality of info found on this site.

If it can't be archived, then we are all playing a silly game of Trivial pursuit. Sad.

I guess I'll get a terabyte of disk space and start downloading .....

quote:

Originally posted by GG-1 4877:
I guess I'll get a terabyte of disk space and start downloading .....

jonathan: you might have to tell the staff the difference between a trilobite and a terabyte ... i fear trilobites are what they dissected in high school biology class.