Another Brute on the block.

First observation, the pictures of the box dont come close to what you see when you walk up to the loading dock and see it there waiting for you.

Second observation, packaging (box) says "381 Big Brute", LOL

Opening the outer box and Kirk at Justrains has thoughtfully included both an MTH and Lionel catalog. Also a receipt with the wonderful pre-order price, ahhhh.

Upon cursory examination (still in cage) I see no indication of paint chips. Scott, where did these show up on yours?

Stay tuned, my back hurts.

Be still my beating heart! Tell me more, tell me more!

OK.

Next observation, to me a disappointment, non operating fixed height pantographs. This may merely be a nod to a faithful reproduction of the original and if so, OK (I guess). I would have like them to be extend able and retractable, but that is just me.

More:

The protective packaging is excellent! Scott had mentioned the cage, someone had commented that the MDF baseboard would probably not withstand to many remove/replace cycles of the fastening screws. I disagree, each screw hole is equipped with nut-serts so they will be good for far more cycles than anyone will have the need for. Thank you to MTH for putting some serious thought into packaging this beast.

Stay tuned.

Looking forward to your review.

quote:

Scott, where did these show up on yours?

On one side in the articulated section there were chips in the paint.

Scott Smith

Yep, same here. One side only at one articulation joint, on the rounded portion of the end section. Thats kinda sad.

I believe the pre-production models on display at York had these paint chips as well.

In all fairness, I think these will be nearly impossible to handle without getting paint damage at the articulation joints.

OK, on to the "cage" after looking it over, and then looking around the room for help (none) I decided to get smart about it, as this looked to be a formidable job. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Put the whole enchilada on a sturdy table.

Swing one end of the cage over the edge.

remove the two screws from the bottom that secure one of the tinplate end sections to the base.

While that end is available remove the bottom screws for the side uprights nearest to the end you are working on. Remove the foam packing and replace the screws just taken out

Remove the two screws that go up through the base to the power truck.

Turn the whole thing around on the table. No need to remove the endplate screws at this end, just remove the bottom screws from the side uprights and the two screws securing the other power truck. Get the foam out of there and replace the upright screws. I thought I'd have to repeat this on the center uprights but the foam came out readily without doing is. back to the first end and remove the two screws and nuts that hold the end plate to the top of the cage.

I thought it was peculiar that the base has rubber feet installed, but they serve a purpose.the whole base/cage/loco can be set down over a straight section of track. then it is fairly easy for one person (me) to ease the behemoth out and onto the track.

mdainsd:

Impressive one-man unpacking!

I have a massive, inoperable rotator cuff tear in my right shoulder, as well as some lower back issues (L-4,5 verterbre), so lifting this thing without help is a definite NEGATIVE!

Will probably ask my ex-track worker (gandy dancer?) and all-around muscle man neighbor at Bear Creek to help me with this monster! Once on the outer 84" diameter loop, it will LIVE there!

I have already pre-ordered a set of cars from my dealer, even before they have been announced!

I thought that the "Brute" was a TOY!

Ron M

GarySeven, I think a Brute needs to find it's way to Beaverton, before you explode!

Best of luck to all who buy a Brute. May you have many years of fun with it.

quote:

Originally posted by scott.smith:

quote:

Scott, where did these show up on yours?

On one side in the articulated section there were chips in the paint.

Scott Smith

I noticed the same paint chips on the Brute in the MTH stand at York. As I was looking at it seeing the paint chips in the sections where it articulates, I thought to myself there is/was no way the paint wouldn't chip off in those sections. That bothered me but I'm anal about stuff like that. If I owned the Brute that would drive me crazy.

Tim O'Malley
I think you're right, but it ain't gonna happen in the near future.

I only hope my OCD will allow me to accept the paint chips in the articulated sections, or I may have to sell mine to Scott!

A little follow on. After looking at the Brute/Super 381 article in another thread here, it is now clear (to me) that the non-movable pantographs are a very good reproduction of what is on the original Brute.

The color and gloss...

The green of the Brute does not match my state cars, either originals or the LTI release of the early 80's. Finish wise it is closer to the original state cars in its semi-gloss paint as opposed to the high gloss used on the LTI units. The Brute paints matches beautifully the green color and the semi-gloss luster on my Liberty Lines State Baggage car.
The differences are not obvious or obnoxious, just different.

For you folks who have received their Brute and noticed the paint chips on the articulated section, what are you/can you do about this?

Should this be sent back to MTH for repair?

It would drive me nuts to spend that much on an engine and to have to worry about continual paint chips. Curious as to your thoughts on this....

Thanks,
Michael

Has anyone ordered or received a chrome plated version of the Brute?

I am interested to know why you decided on the plated version vs. the green and how the two versions compare.

Thanks....

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Duke:
For you folks who have received their Brute and noticed the paint chips on the articulated section, what are you/can you do about this?

Should this be sent back to MTH for repair?

It would drive me nuts to spend that much on an engine and to have to worry about continual paint chips. Curious as to your thoughts on this....

Thanks,
Michael

The chips are a bummer, but I cant see shipping it across the country two more times in hopes that it would a) be repaired and b)make it back to me with out new chips. The two articulated sections have to be removed to service the battery and I for one am not going to mess with it, it can RIP right were it is.
I didn't purchase mine with operation in mind, just display.

*edit: and the chip on mine is only slightly larger than a pencil lead, you have to look for it for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by mdainsd:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Duke:
For you folks who have received their Brute and noticed the paint chips on the articulated section, what are you/can you do about this?

Should this be sent back to MTH for repair?

It would drive me nuts to spend that much on an engine and to have to worry about continual paint chips. Curious as to your thoughts on this....

Thanks,
Michael

The chips are a bummer, but I cant see shipping it across the country two more times in hopes that it would a) be repaired and b)make it back to me with out new chips. The two articulated sections have to be removed to service the battery and I for one am not going to mess with it, it can RIP right were it is.
I didn't purchase mine with operation in mind, just display.

*edit: and the chip on mine is only slightly larger than a pencil lead, you have to look for it for sure.

A couple of thoughts:

Would you expect these paint chips to be a constant issue or worsen for those that operate the engine or is this strictly a shipping issue?

I remember a similar issue occurred when Lionel shipped their recent MR Bi-Polar engines to dealers. Weren't these corrected by Lionel and re-shipped with cushioning material around the articulated sections? I would think MTH would have done the same.

Michael

Hard to say.

My opinion is that the chips are not happening during shipping. The loco is very well secured to the base and due to the routered out slots for the wheels this thing just cannot move about in its shipping materials. The articulated joints have foam packing in them (well most of them). I have not flexed mine more than it would flex on SG72 turns. I dont know if there are stops to prevent the painted surfaces from coming in contact with each other or not. And Im not willing to test that theory, LOL

I took a real close-up of the area in question. I will post it tonite as I cant do it here.

Is your paint chip in the same place as mine?

Scott Smith

Yes Scott, I think so, mine are on the rounded vertical portion of the end unit near the top where it joins to the rounded cover.

Looking at the close-up photos, I can't imagine how that overlapping joint could be in service for any length of time and NOT get minor paint chips. The only way I could see to prevent it would be to put some kind of slick plastic coating on the inside of the outer segments, and correct the clearance by bending. If I had one of these, I wouldn't worry about it. It also looks to me like it would be very easy to do a near-invisible touchup if you can get matching paint. If MTH can't provide matching touchup paint, it wouldn't be a major project to mix it. That would certainly be a lot easier and more cost-effective than shipping a monster like that back to Columbia, Maryland. I really wouldn't blame MTH for the chips; I don't see how they could have gotten the kind of tolerances you would need to avoid these chips on what is really a stamped metal toy.

The issue on the Lionel Bi-Polars was different. The segments on the Lionel Bi-Polar do not overlap; the problem was contact between segments during shipping and handling or on curves. Lionel touched up the paint and added plastic foam packing between the segments to prevent contact during shipping and unpacking. The Lionel is also a die-casting, not a stamping, so clearances and tolerances can be much tighter.

quote:

Originally posted by Tinplate Art:
I only hope my OCD will allow me to accept the paint chips in the articulated sections, or I may have to sell mine to Scott!

Art - If every one of these models has paint chips, then it is prototypical!

When I received my beloved Blue Comet I was disappointed to find several large deep scratches in the pilot deck. I tried to rationalize it but I thought for $800 I wanted it to be as perfect as possible. I did return it and waited an agonizing two weeks for a new one. The new one had imperfections, but they were a lot easier to live with. In the Brute's case, the chips being on the articulation joint, I would think it wouldn't be as noticeable while it was running. Still, for that kind of money, there should be some kind of solution/fix. At least that is what I would expect.

James

Im definitely not sending mine anywhere, the chip doesnt bother me in the slightest, lets just call it character, shall we?

On a slightly different note. I just received an O gauge loco I had wanted. It is a new MTH release (2008) it is a scale C&O coal turbine. Imagine my dismay upon unpacking it and finding that the tender trucks wont rotate enough to even allow operation on 0120 track!!! Does anyone check these things out before turning them loose on the public?

Is there any way the felt could be attached to the inside of the cab where it can come into contact with the part that is chipped?

On the JAD M10,000, there are very thin felt strips glued to the insides of the ends of the cars/locomotive where they contact the vestibule. They do not get scratched, even with a lot of operation.

RE: Removing the articulated sections to service the battery!?

Did MTH NOT include a charging port for this beast?

PLEASE tell me it ain't so!

quote:

Originally posted by Tinplate Art:
RE: Removing the articulated sections to service the battery!?

Did MTH NOT include a charging port for this beast?

PLEASE tell me it ain't so!

Relax Art, we dont want anything happening to you, before you get to play with your Brute.

Yes, MTH included a charing port for the battery. Removing the articulated sections is just for battery access, should that ever become necessary

quote:

Originally posted by scott.smith:
Is your paint chip in the same place as mine?

Scott Smith

Did MTH charge extra for the chips? And can Calabrese account for his time when this engine was damaged???

quote:

Originally posted by Ron Blume:

quote:

Originally posted by scott.smith:
Is your paint chip in the same place as mine?

Scott Smith

And can Calabrese account for his time when this engine was damaged???

LOL

Call me a pessimist...but I have this feeling that WE ARE ALL GONNA SEE THESE CHIPS TIME AND TIME AGAIN!!!

I agree with you Ron. I played at length with the articulation on mine last night.

IF everything is perfectly level and you bend the end units around the center there are some small screws down low that contact each other, head to head. In other words in this perfect "world" no painted surfaces meet. If there is much variation in your track, like a curve on the start of an incline I can see paint hitting paint, just my two cents.

Defect Reduction:

I am NOT a business person, but I have a reasonable suggestion for MTH and ALL manufacturers that utilize Chinese production:

Have at least ONE company representative from your engineering staff "ON THE GROUND" at EACH Chinese factory to insure adequate adherence to specs, and for spot-checking production for defects. Corrections could then be made on the line. In the long run, such DIRECT OVERSIGHT would save $$$$, and reduce customer dissatisfaction!

In the "old Days" at Lionel, Mario Caruso would check the "line" on a daily basis, rejecting less-than-quality production, and undoubtedly sternly admonishing the hapless worker who made the mistake!

Joshua Cowen utilized Mario as the "bad cop", while he retained a paternalistic posture, and it worked!

Curiously, the "Lionel Classics" produced by the Korean firm, Samhongsa, were well-made with very few defects!

Even the 381E gets scratches on it where the frame pivots under the body of the engine. Tinplate is not designed to handle movement well.

Tinplate Art has an excellent idea for quality control at Chinese factories. This is, in fact, commonly done by many importers of all kinds of goods. They either send one of their own people or hire a free-lancer as their representative to oversee quality control. I have no idea whether the train manufacturers do this or not.

Years ago when I lived in Taiwan, I dated a young American woman who made a good living as a free-lance teddy bear inspector. I still have a couple of stuffed animals she gave me.

Check this out from the 3-Rail O-Gauge Trains side of the forum:

Bearlead "My Brute Has Arrived!"

Looking at my Brute in its shipping cage, I already noticed one paint chip in the same general area as Scott's engine. Mine doesn't go all the way into the metal as his photo indicates his does.

I agree with the opinion that this damage did not occur in transit but during some procedure at the factory or during the packing process.

BTW, Scott or anyone, how do you lift the thing onto the display shelf or track once you get it out of the shipping cage? It looks like there is potential for damage due to the articulation factor between the hoods and the cab. Tips appreciated!

BrutifiedBear

Good to see you posting over here on the "lighter side," Brother Bear! I guess you'll have to enlist Jophie's help to remove that monster from its cage. Of course, I'm assuming that you have provided her with that Coor's Light train she had her eyes on so there's a fair trade-off at this point.

quote:

I thought that the "Brute" was a TOY!

That's why Lionel's management decided not to produce it when they had La Precisa build the lone pre-production prototype for corporate consideration back in 1927!

Brother Allan....no, Jophie doesn't know that I own a brute yet, so I'm scheming on how I'll pull this job off. She probably won't go to the Rocky Mountain Division meet with me in two weeks where I plan to display the Brute publicly. Some time after that, I will engineer the running of the gauntlet with one of my local train nut buddies.

Then I will need to take some time off work for a few days to lay the required new loop of dual O and Std gauge track to run it on before I'll need an accomplice to help me get the behemoth onto the table and track. My oh my the lengths we go to in order to hide our nefarious hobby!

EnjoyingTheHeckOuttaThisBear